Finding the Devil in New Orleans

[tw]

Originally Posted by dar512

You know, tw, you make this stuff sound like a great revelation, but it's not.

The truth is that all people are like this to one level or another. It's just that organizations tend to represent the lowest common denominator so this is what comes out.

A child can be in denial. A parent cannot. A crewman can be in denial. The ship's Captain cannot. A citizen can be in denial. The elected leadership cannot. And yet the symptoms in New Orleans strongly suggest leadership that was in denial. Denial is not acceptable behavior anytime anywhere one is in charge.

Denial murdered seven Challenger astronauts. Shame is that same denial then killed seven Columbia astronauts. Do you find denial acceptable human behavior for your pilot while inside a passenger jet at 35,000 feet?

[Elspode]

Much has also been made on the news about most of the people who didn't leave not having a means to do so...no car, no money, noplace else to go. At the time the evacuation was ordered, I don't recall hearing anything about buses, trains or other transport being arranged for the evacuees, nor was there anyplace set up for them to go in advance (I could be wrong about these points, but I never did hear anything that suggested preparations any more farsighted than "get the hell out of town now").

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by wolf

The city was evacuated of the people that were willing to go

The city was evacuated of the people that were willing and able to go.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by wolf

Okay, so like where is the Weekly World News Cover with the Devil's Face in the approaching storm? Isn't that what this thread is about?

That's what I thought too when I first clicked on the thread.

[chronos]

TW,
One thing I have a bit of an issue with is the complaint that the city has not been engineered to withstand the sort of storm that has hit it now and that it's the fault of the local goverment for not making sure the city could deal with this. This is an easy flaw to target and rail against, but in all honesty what could really be expected?
I've been a consultant for years and I've gone into hundreds of environments where I've been stunned that they still run with how badly they've been engineered and patched together. At first I blamed the management for not authorizing the efforts needed to fix everything. I've since learned that it is so easy to come in after the fact and say how things SHOULD have been done to deal with the current situation. This view doesn't take into account the growth and demands every step along the way. People make the best decisions they can with the information AND funding they have. As they grow to meet larger demands they add things piecemeal which adds to the hodgepodge nature of the environment.
Consider that New Orleans has been around for over 100 years and over that period the population has exploded. The city used to be above water. By the time things got out of hand and the city in jeapordy, it was too expensive and politically impossible to change things. As private citizens we get PISSED at the gov when they tell us we have to sacrifice our personal situation for the greater good. Would you sacrifice your home because the gov said they needed to make a better drainage system? Would you let them double your taxes and put up with 10-15 years of major construction (a la Boston) so that you were better prepared for a 100 or 1000 year storm? If you say yes, I believe you are in the minority. Officials that suggested charging the taxes needed to do what needed to be done wouldn't get elected. We, as american citizens, vote for officials that make our INDIVIDUAL lives better not those that protect the society as a whole at our expense.
As to the people who didn't leave when they should have and COULD have, I hate to say it but they made a choice and had to suffer the consequences. As to those that should have left but COULD NOT, it makes me very very sad and I pray for those that are still alive that they get the help they need.

Just my two cents.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by tw

Denial murdered seven Challenger astronauts. Shame is that same denial then killed seven Columbia astronauts. Do you find denial acceptable human behavior for your pilot while inside a passenger jet at 35,000 feet?

No. I didn't say it was right or good. But it will happen. People are human and even those in positions of responsibility will sometimes cross their fingers and hope for the best.

Here's the other thing. Those in the government are responsible to the people they represent. Do you really think that the people of NO would have been willing to raise their taxes in order to pay for better protection from the storm and the sea? Shoot. You can't even get people to pay for local school bonds to keep their schools in repair. "People get the government they deserve."

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by chronos

As to the people who didn't leave when they should have and COULD have, I hate to say it but they made a choice and had to suffer the consequences.

And then get paid when it's time to sue the City of New Orleans, et al for the levees breaking.

As to those that should have left but COULD NOT, it makes me very very sad and I pray for those that are still alive that they get the help they need.

The only people that COULD NOT are prisoners, people in the hospital, and law enforcement/fire crew, and nurses/doctors, etc who are fully expected to stay.

I don't care if you don't have a car, you can grab a trashbag of clothes and start walking. Where? Anywhere higher than here. North is good. You might not have gotten far, but you wouldn't be at the Superdome.

In addition: this whole thing at the superdome is dumb. You have (picking a number out my ass) 25,000 people at the superdome, waiting for rescue by helicopter. A group of (lets say) 100 people are shooting at the helicopter. Why didn't the 24,900 other people beat the living shit out of them for suspending the evacuation? I'd have a hard time letting some dumbshit shoot at my ride outta here. FUCK THAT!

I think martial law should have been declared yesterday, and I think TW is spot on with his diagnosis of the problem. I think rebuilding New Orleans on the present site is fucking stupid, especially in light of the article's contents, posted in the first few posts.

My company has offices in New Orleans and Pensacola, and affiliates in Baton Rouge. We're all getting together and helping the people who HAD to stay, but those who were non essential were made to evacuate by the company.

I have little sympathy for any who chose to stay, whether they had vehicles or not. A mandatory evacuation order was in place. Why will you pay these people who were stupid enough to stay? When are we going to get tired of paying higher insurance premiums for dumbasses like this???

Oh, you built a $500,000 home on Okracoke Island? The San Andreas? New Orleans? Then you're an idiot to start with, but want insurance? Um....how about... NO! Pay for any damages your dumb damn self, don't expect me and millions of others to pay for YOUR ignorant choices.

*grr*



Edit: "When the Levee Breaks" by Led Zepplin. I hear it's not allowed to be played on the radio. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

[tw]

Originally Posted by chronos

I've been a consultant for years and I've gone into hundreds of environments where I've been stunned that they still run with how badly they've been engineered and patched together. At first I blamed the management for not authorizing the efforts needed to fix everything. I've since learned that it is so easy to come in after the fact and say how things SHOULD have been done to deal with the current situation. This view doesn't take into account the growth and demands every step along the way. People make the best decisions they can with the information AND funding they have. As they grow to meet larger demands they add things piecemeal which adds to the hodgepodge nature of the environment.

Originally Posted by dar512

Do you really think that the people of NO would have been willing to raise their taxes in order to pay for better protection from the storm and the sea? Shoot. You can't even get people to pay for local school bonds to keep their schools in repair. "People get the government they deserve."

Both quotes invent straw men; reply to things neither posted nor relevant to this thread. At no place or at no time did anyone suggest making New Orleans a category 5 city. In fact the US Army Corp of Engineer in charge of those levees said they only built those levees, intentionally, to withstand a category 3 storm. The levees are what they were intended to be. How then does chronos and dar512 change this into "installing Category 5 protection for New Orleans"?

New Orleans, whether due to 'hodge podge' engineering or due to superior design, was only rated for a Category 3 storm. A point that will be repeated because so many posters did not grasp it. Katrina was a Cat 5 storm. It was known to be a Cat 5 storm days previously, it was a very large storm (about 400 miles diameter), it was approaching slowly and as predicted, and it was coming right at New Orleans. So where did anyone say anything about fixing the levees? A cat 5 storm striking a cat 3 city does not even require an IQ of 80 to comprehend. The levees would fail. No one should have been in that town. And yet the number of cars now underwater demonstrates how many people still did not leave. People died because the family decision maker did not get everyone in the car and get "the hell out of Dodge". The person whose job is not to be in denial, instead, did not do his job. Did not make what was an obvious decision.

Furthermore, city and state officials response, knowing full well that it was a cat 5 storm, was to even not evacuate the prison.

Meanwhile, in an interview with a person who did a disaster study for this situation, it was well known that many people would not have transportation to get out of Dodge. So where were the lines of buses days previously to remove those people? Americans whose job it was to not be in denial were, apparently, in so much denial as to even leave all prisoners - many hundreds - maybe thousands - in the prison!

You tell me where this is representative of being responsible. No one suggested even for one minute that the levees should be fixed. That is a classic example of reading for what one wants to see. Let me make it woefully clearer. This city was only protected for a category 3 storm. Katrina was a category 5. Why will it take a week to rescue everyone? Why will people die from dehydration on their own roofs? Why are people who should be evacuated from hospitals, instead, may die. Too many people stayed when even government officials, by their actions, did not take Katrina seriously. Now there are not enough rescue people and machines to save all those lives.

I have pity on the poor Director of FEMA. Even his boss can't grasp a basic fact. George Jr today said that no one expected the levees to fail. Bullshit, dic licking, mother raper, ass hole. Do we let the President of the United State be that cunt licking dumb? Yes. How does the director of FEMA do his job when even his own boss is that pathetically naive. Everyone ... everyone ... everyone knew a category 5 storm was going to breach the levees. Everyone with minimal intelligence.

There is no way around that fact. Katrina was a Category 5 storm threatening a city was only intended to survive a Cat 3 storm. Why did city officials act in denial? Therein lies proof, again, of the well proven concept: 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Even George Jr is in denial days after the disaster.

Who voted for these people?

[Mr.Anon.E.Mouse]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

I don't care if you don't have a car, you can grab a trashbag of clothes and start walking. Where? Anywhere higher than here. North is good. You might not have gotten far, but you wouldn't be at the Superdome.

I saw a video clip on the CNN.com website - an interview with a woman who was pissed off:"....We had to walk, literally walk, out of town!" Um, hello?! Sometimes you have to walk, nay, RUN, if you want to save your fucking life! In another interview a different woman described how her boy friend stole a bakery truck. Ok, well, I guess desperate times call for desperate measures, but, it seems, when that truck broke down, her boyfriend's friend beat up another guy driving a semi and they stole THAT one, too!

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

In addition: this whole thing at the superdome is dumb. You have (picking a number out my ass) 25,000 people at the superdome, waiting for rescue by helicopter. A group of (lets say) 100 people are shooting at the helicopter. Why didn't the 24,900 other people beat the living shit out of them for suspending the evacuation? I'd have a hard time letting some dumbshit shoot at my ride outta here. FUCK THAT!

Hear, hear. But then maybe those sensible people were busy stopping the folks sticking up a van full of medical supplies. Oh, wait, no, they weren't.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Oh, you built a $500,000 home on Okracoke Island? The San Andreas? New Orleans? Then you're an idiot to start with, but want insurance? Um....how about... NO! Pay for any damages your dumb damn self, don't expect me and millions of others to pay for YOUR ignorant choices.

*grr*

I used to do flood determinations based on ACOE maps for the NFIP. I was blown away by the folks that would build their homes in areas that were clearly designated as not safe to build homes in as a result of tidal flooding. But you know what? The homes would get washed away and FEMA would come in and let them rebuild. Insurance would pay for the new place and Bob's yer uncle, see you again in 20 years.

Is it bad that I'm feeling very little for the victims of this horrible disaster? I mean, I gave every bit of money I could afford to give to the victims of the tsunami last year, I felt horrible for them and, damn, I just don't seem to have any more grief left. Especially for folks shooting at rescue and military helicopters, folks holding up at gun-point medical supply vehicles, folks looting their neighbors...

[tw]

Ted Koppel on Nightline is currently grilling Michael Brown with questions that make me look politically correct. Michael Brown is not answering - instead making excuses. For example, no one is being fed in the SuperDome. Michael Brown had to be confronted with that fact multiple times before he would admit it. It is worse than that bad. FEMA knew that 100,000 people in New Orleans had no means of getting out of town .... and FEMA did nothing.

BTW, Koppel also noted George Jr's statement that no one could have forseen the levees would break. Just anther example of gross administrative mismanagement.

Look at Koppel's eyes. There is an anger in his calm grilling that I have not seen in years. The long list of details in Koppel's grilling exposes another point. Five days after the fact and FEMA is only talking about what they are planning to do - not what is currently underway or ongoing. FEMA still has no plans.

[Elspode]

Try bouncing back and forth between MSNBC and FoxNews.

On MSNBC, people are dead and dying, starving, screaming, abandoned at the Civic Center...

On Fox, people are clean, comfortable, fed, happy and entertained in refugee centers.

Both the Left and the Right have their mouthpieces working, getting out the message they want us to see.

Originally Posted by Elspode

Try bouncing back and forth between MSNBC and FoxNews.

On MSNBC, people are dead and dying, starving, screaming, abandoned at the Civic Center...

On Fox, people are clean, comfortable, fed, happy and entertained in refugee centers.

Both the Left and the Right have their mouthpieces working, getting out the message they want us to see.

From the National Weather Service Forecast I quoted on the other thread before this all came down:

MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL FAILURE...

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL.
PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD
FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE
BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME WALL AND ROOF FAILURE...

POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS...AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED. WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS...

George Jr today said that no one expected the levees to fail.

In its budget, the Bush administration proposed a significant reduction in funding for southeast Louisiana's chief hurricane protection project. Bush proposed $10.4 million, a sixth of what local officials say they need."

Right, Left, or Center; Fox or MSNBC, what does that tell you about the quality of our leadership?

[Elspode]

I think that our government was at least 36 hours late in their response, and I still think New Orleans is being grotesquely mismanaged. I think a lot of that is leadership failures, both Bush and local/state authorities.

Bush doesn't live in the same world as normal people. He doesn't understand it, because he's never had to participate in it. Therefore, none of this has the same impact on him as it does on us regular folks, who can imagine ourselves in the same predicament as these poor bastards.

The wife and I are going to spend Labor Day weekend assembling a disaster kit. There may be firearms involved.

[Kitsune]

I just heard this morning that the massive Navy hospital ship, "Comfort", will finally leave Baltimore Sunday morning.

...Sunday morning? What the hell? A catagory five storm is preparing to slam into a major Gulf coast city and they're leaving more than a week later?

[Elspode]

Five days gives the really, really sick and injured plenty of time to die, thus lessening the load. You have to think like a bureaucrat, Kitsune, before you can fathom what is going on.