Disillusionment

[Whit]

      Yeah, Juju, the feakin' flu. I'm feeling better though. Temp actually down under 102.

      Actually, I got the Grimms Fairy Tales book to read to my kids. The problem I found was they didn't understand the culture/time that the stories came from. So, they didn't get a lot of the stories. Oh well. I've got some anime they can watch. Not so focused on the happy endings. Good guys die a lot more too. The division between good and evil is less exacting, more blurry. More philosophicaly realistic, so to speak.

[Riddil]

Is it even allowable to skip 4 pages of posts and simply post right at the end? Well.. truth be told I did skim the other posts.

I think that this thread has fallen a little astray. Santa Claus is the easiest and most prevalent example about "disillusionment" that you can pull from. Buuuut, I think that in that regard Santa isn't the example to use as your primary argument. Santa is different from 99% of everything else a child learns in that he is a truly imaginary character. He simply does not exist in the "fat man, red suit, little elves" respect. Even though a child may be disheartened when he learns the truth, it is still something their psyche can heal from w/o any great long-term trauma.

But.... what about the things that aren't concrete. Take for example my nephew.... well first, you need to understand my brother. My dear bro Ryan has always been a sports-nut. Ultra-competitive in everything he does. Lombardi is one of his greatest heroes. In fact, he's so fixated on sports that his child is named "Isiah" after Isiah Thomas, the former NBA star.

As Ryan is raising his son he's teaching him what he believes are very important life lessons.

- Never accept 2nd place. 2nd place is the first loser.
- Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing
- Don't make excuses, make results
etc etc

That's great... and those are some great catch-phrases... but we learned those as adults to help motivate us. But one thing that life has taught is that nobody wins them all. Sometimes you lose. So now you have this child taking those phrases not as a motivator, but as a life-affirming slogan. His son is so ultra-competitive at 6 years old, that if you play any game with him, he will cry, scream, cheat, hit, yell, pout, and do whatever it takes to win.

Not everyone will become an astronaut. Not everyone will get to be the Super Bowl MVP. I seriously watch my bro raise his child and I'm ready to see this kid in a fit of rage the first time he loses a foot race. Or doesn't make the cut for a HS sport team. Or isn't picked first in gym class. *Whatever*.

Disillusionment is most damaging when the ideas that are instilled aren't black-or-white. And worse yet when society only serves to reinforce those ideals (like winning-is-the-only-thing mantra) you have either a lifetime of frustration, or a huge depressing crash when suddenly you realize that you will never become the king-of-the-world.

And don't use Tiger Woods as a positive example... because I promise you that for every 1 Tiger Woods out there, you'll find 10,000 more failed children who one day had to wake up and accept the fact that they "aren't good enough", no matter how hard they were pushed, and no matter what motivational slogans they live by.

Disillusionment at it's worst.

[lumberjim]

Originally posted by Riddil

. His son is so ultra-competitive at 6 years old, that if you play any game with him, he will cry, scream, cheat, hit, yell, pout, and do whatever it takes to win.

sounds like a CEO in the making.

very good points riddil. do you have kids? sounds like you'd be a good parent. maybe you could try to soften your brother's impact with a little sound uncle-ey advice to the young man. if you make an impression and turn it into a "bonding" thing, your nephew might let you use his yacht some weekend in the future.

[perth]

Originally posted by Riddil
Disillusionment is most damaging when the ideas that are instilled aren't black-or-white.

Riddil, can you clarify this? It may be a matter of interpretation, but I'm not entirely sure I agree on that point. I have made every effort to install in my son that very few things in this world are as simple as black and white. At his age, it's simple things, like it's okay to cry when you're hurt, but not okay to cry when you don't get your way (actually, I can see how that might be considered black and white when taken as separate things. Again, I suspect it's interpretation). Basically, I'm teaching him that compromise has a place in most every conflict, and the ability to reach compromises depends a lot on your ability to see shades of grey (and green, purple and silver).

[Whit]

      Kinda remends me of the Jock in the Breakfast Club. It is also more along the lines of what I meant when I started this thread. In this case I think much like the Jock character little Isiah is going to grow up questioning his self-worth every time he's not number 1. Probably have feelings of resentment wound up in a need to please his Dad too. That sucks.

[kerosene]

In this case, I really don't think it is so much a matter of black and white vs. shades of gray. I think that when a parent pushes too hard and expects too much, he/she teaches the child to do the same. The child will learn to expect more than he/she can ever accomplish from himself and end up in a perpetual state of disappointment and sadness. The disillusionment can happen over and over again, but the compulsion to set super high, unatainable expectations for one's self and the rest of the world never really ends. Disillusionment is only temporary for people like this...namely, me.

I think it is great to shoot for the best, but to hold yourself or others to expectations of perfection (or always winning) is ludicrous and damages a person's sense of self worth for a long time.

Just speaking from my experiences.

[Whit]

      This is an excellent example. Still there are others. For instance, we're all expected to grow up, go to college, get married, by a house and start popping out kids. However, what if no field attracks a young person? What if they can't find Mr./Mrs. Right? Are intimidated by the expense of buying a house? The kids come along early and unplanned? Here we have a disillusioned youth. They come in large numbers. Why does society push these images so hard when they rarely work out so well in reality?

[Riddil]

LOL lumberjim, thank you much for the kind words, I take that as a compliment. While I'm not a current pappy, I'd like to think I'd make a good father. And honestly it's one of the reasons why I think I'm going to end up breaking it off with my girlfriend in the near future... she is dead-set against ever having children at any point in her life, and to her it's an unwavering stipulation. I'm not sure I can live with that. (I do what I can to help my nephew, but I only see him 2-3 times a year.)

But, back to the discussion... I absolutely agree that this isn't a black-and-white issue. Santa Claus is a B&W... you tell a child he exists, and that child accepts it as truth. Eventually they learn the bona-fide truth, and it is a polar opposite to what they had accepted in their mind as fact. Reality hurts for a bit, but they accept it.

However... an issue like, "Winning is the only thing"... that's not B&W. You can prove that Santa isn't real. You can't prove that "winning isn't the only answer" if you're preaching to a person who's accepted that as their life-affirming truth. It's the gray areas that trap people the fastest, and brings them down the hardest.

Disillustionment is bad.. but we'll never be able to escape it fully, it's part of life, too. Even if parents or society in general instills some ideal in a person's mind, we all invent plenty of things in our lives that simply aren't based in reality. Whether it's the belief that that your life-long friend would never bilk you for a ton of cash and never repay you... or the love-of-your-life unexpectedly dashes your heart... or any other self-imposed illusion we build for ourselves... at some point reality will come barging in. And then we try to help prevent other people from suffering the same pain. This is the reason why former alcoholics are the most out-spoken against other people drinking.... or former 'sinners of babylon' turn into the loudest bible-thumpers. They had such an extreme fall-from-heights, that they're doing their best to make sure no one else falls.

And don't get me started on college. That is a major sore point with me. Colleges are flooded with people who do not belong, but are only there b/c society has mandated that *everyone* goes to college lest they be deemed a failure. College should be for people who are interested in continuing their education. Not for people who's primary goal is to find the next drunken orgy, and begrudgingly accept the burden of a college course-load so that their parents will keep paying their bills. It's laughable watching HS seniors dutifully march off to college for no better reason than they've been taught it's the only acceptable path. And the end result is a deterioration of the quality of our schools.

Blah.

(oh, and OT, I also discourage some parents instilling the idea that losing is OK. They preach, "if you happen to win, great! If not... *shrug*." We're breeding a nation of losers... children who aren't willing to work for their goals because they've learned, "Hey, it's ok if I fail all the time! Pass the bong!" But that's a discussion for another thread.)

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by Riddil
(oh, and OT, I also discourage some parents instilling the idea that losing is OK. They preach, "if you happen to win, great! If not... *shrug*." We're breeding a nation of losers... children who aren't willing to work for their goals because they've learned, "Hey, it's ok if I fail all the time! Pass the bong!" But that's a discussion for another thread.)

I think that the main thing is to teach children to lose and not think it's the end of the world, or to win and think that it's everything. I *really* don't think that suddenly a child is going to become some kind of loser drug addict if a parent tells them that its ok to lose.

I also think it's important to teach that it's ok to lose in SOME things and not take it TOO hard, and to maybe try another way to achieve that goal in order to win.

[Riddil]

Well... I didn't want to turn this into a parenting/discussion thread since it was intended to be a disillusionment thread... but I guess we've crossed that bridge.

And I wasn't trying to imply that teaching your child to accept a loss is a bad thing. I'm talking about parents who teach their children that losing is an acceptable thing. And there is a difference.

Billy struck out when he went up to bat? Oh well, the game was meant to be fun. Shrug it off.

He got a D in history and math? Well some kids just aren't as good in school, it's OK.

He was late to his appointment? No big deal, everyone runs behind. He got fired from his first job? Ah well some people just don't get along with their boss. Wrecked his car? Let's buy him another one and tell him to drive more safely.

It's an on-going cycle. While it's important to be able to accept your losses, you shouldn't just accept losing all the time. Have goals and be willing to *work* for them. If Billy struck out at the plate... yeah, it's OK... but what did he learn from it? Will he be a better batter next time? Accept that fact that he flunked a class, but don't accept the behavior/attitude/plan/events that led to him flunking. Find out *why* it's happening, and find a plan to fix the problem.

Too many people are teaching the, "it's OK to lose" mantra without backing it up with the, "now go figure out what you need to do to win next time.... and follow through with it"

When I was a kid I was never afraid to tell my dad anything. Break a window? Flunk a test? Lose my jacket? I could tell my Pop straight away, and I knew that those actions didn't measure my "worth of a person" in his eyes. But I also knew that he expected me to learn from it and do better next time. I really think too many people just accept losing... and all that does is breed losers.

The basic theme out of all of this... it's bad to go to either extreme. If you teach your kid the one extreme of, "winning is the only thing" you'll end up with a self-loathing, depressed child. If you go to the other extreme and teach your kid, "lose and be happy", you'll end up with an unmotivated stoner, happily spending his mid-thirties working as a dishwasher.

Balance is found in the middle. (Is that redundantly redundant?)

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by Riddil
While it's important to be able to accept your losses, you shouldn't just accept losing all the time.

I would think would be impossible (to lose ALL of the time. Even Charlie Brown won a few...lol!)

Have goals and be willing to *work* for them. If Billy struck out at the plate... yeah, it's OK... but what did he learn from it? Will he be a better batter next time? Accept that fact that he flunked a class, but don't accept the behavior/attitude/plan/events that led to him flunking. Find out *why* it's happening, and find a plan to fix the problem.

That's what I was saying in my last post. I guess I just worded it in a different way, or it didn't come across the way that I wanted it to.

[Riddil]

Oh ja, I understood what you were trying to say in your post. I was just re-wording my original statement so that it got across the real idea I was trying to convey.

Oh... and how about this for a plot twist... it just occurred to me... why do we always look at disillusionment as a bad thing? I'm willing to be that we've all been pleasantly surprised when something turned out better than our perception of that thing could have been.

Liiiike.... showing up for an interview that you knew you'd bomb terribly... instead you amaze everyone and land the job? Or maybe your kid has his/her first public performance, and even though you *hope* they'll do fine, you have a sinking suspicion that it'll go horribly awry... only to watch them pull it off flawlessly?

I think we tend to focus on the negative moments more than on the pleasant surprises in life.

Just think about the born-again-Christian... I'm willing to bet when they have their "moment" and accept Jesus they're just about floored as their previous 'disillusionment' of the world washes away and is replaced with their faith.

I'd imagine it's a pretty powerful feeling. (Me.. I went the opposite way... d'oh!)

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by Riddil
Oh... and how about this for a plot twist... it just occurred to me... why do we always look at disillusionment as a bad thing? I'm willing to be that we've all been pleasantly surprised when something turned out better than our perception of that thing could have been.

But...would that still be DISillusionment?

To free or deprive of illusion.
n.
The act of disenchanting.
The condition or fact of being disenchanted.

That sounds more negative than positive. Perhaps that's MY disillusion.

[Whit]

      Actually, Rid, kids figured very prominently into the origin of the thread, so go with it. As far as teaching kids it's ok to be a failure, I'd agree that's an illusion that's going to cripple them in life. In fact I'd say it's tied directly into my "happy ending" rant. Kids are often taught that effort is not required for them to get everything they want.
      So where is the happy medium? With my kids, I tend to separate games and life. For instance, they have a great night fencing and I'll reward them with a hug, advice on how to do even better and by letting them chose where we eat that night. A lousy night fencing and they get a hug and advice on how to do better next time. Note the change? They certainly do.
      Whereas life stuff like school for instance I treat differently. When my daughter came back with top notch grades and in the 94% on the stat9 test she got paraded like a hero. She got to watch me call the family and brag about her. She positively glowed. I also told her that I believed in her and that she could do better, she happily said she thought she could to and that she'd try harder next time. The boy got poor grades due to lack of work and effort, scored in the mid eighties on the stat9. Way below his potential. He lost all TV and video game privileges. Plus he had me hovering over him as he did his homework for weeks. Instant improvement.
      It's tough to toe the line, come down on a kid while making them feel loved. But it's part of the disillusionment idea. Making intangible future happenings seem more real to a kid so that they are less surprised when it gets here.