Russian attack on country of Georgia

[BigV]

What is the minimum critical mass for a viable state (excluding Grifftopia, of course)?

Is Georgia large enough to stand alone? South Ossetia? Abkazia? I heard that there are as few as 100,000 native Abkaz's (sp?) remaining. How can that be enough to form a stable state? Especially in the location under consideration here? And under the circumstances you describe, having been "given to" Georgia. Perhaps Ohio is large enough to be a viable independent state. What would the US response be to a (hypothetical) "breakaway" by Ohio?

It's pretty ugly from all directions, I admit.

But our own interests must include a demonstrable effect to being called an "ally", don't you agree?

[regular.joe]

I do agree, we do have to demonstrate our ability to be an ally. We don't have to demonstrate our ability to turn a blind eye to regional history and politics, in favor of our own "spin" of how we'd like to see the world. I think this would serve our interests much more. This "spin" smacks of dishonesty and self delusion to me.

I think diplomatically Georgia fucked this up, it puts us, their friend, into a very tough position.

I suppose if it were up to me, I'd put the mailed fist that we have into a velvet glove more often then have been.

What if the "Ohians" had been living in Ohio since before our alphabet was invented by traveling monks?

[BigV]

To answer your last question, the "Ohioans" in question might be described as Chippewa or Delaware or Erie. This has happened. A futuristic example has even entered the language by the Borg "You will be assimilated."

What makes the wheels go round and round is a mutual respect for the rule of law. My read on this is that the SOs disliked the treatment they received at the hands of the Georgians, and hoped (probably in vain, but the grass is always greener, etc etc) to dislike the treatment by the Russians a little less.

If they want independence, they're dreaming. If they want to be Russians, they'll be accommodated [/borg].

[xoxoxoBruce]

Some, but not all, want to be Russians. In fact many do hold Russian citizenship.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

No one wanted Georgia to be admitted to NATO precisely because we are not blind. We knew exactly what would have happened. Georgia would have gone after their break away provinces of South Ossetia, and Abkazia, and expected all their new allies to back them up. We are not that dumb diplomatically. It's been going on since Stalin gave these provinces to Georgia in the early 1900's, intensified in 1991 and carries on today.

The west is big on making Russia out to be the big bad guy in this. They are by no means innocent, neither is Georgia, neither are the South Ossetians. The very nature and way that people think who are born and raised in this part of the world, the way they think about ethnicity is foreign to us in the melting pot of America. Again we are judging the actions of a foreign nation by our own measures and we will come up short, and fail to fully engage out of ignorance.

In my opinion Georgia fucked this one up. We would do the same thing if in Russia's shoes.

The truth is between Pravda and CNN somewhere.

You may be correct on your assessment of Georgia's intentions with NATO membership, but I think that there really would be no obligation on the part of NATO to come to their aid if Georgia was the aggressor, and in this case they may have. All they did was open up a grand opportunity on the part of Russia to do what they have wanted to do for a long time, and that is reverse the bleeding of the break away republics from continuing to defect to the West and the EU. And in the case of Russia, they may also pay a large price for the incursion. Poland quickly agreed to allow a US anti-missile base in Poland. Others may follow suit as well, looking at it as a fast track to get closer to the West and EU and further from the domination and reversal to cold war era of the USSR. We are obviously entering a new cold war. All the more reason to quickly normalize relations with Cuba and cut off a similar move by the Russians in our own back yard.

[TheMercenary]

August 14, 2008
South Ossetia: The perfect wrong war

By now, days after Georgian forces stormed the capital of south Ossetia and Russian units counter attacked across the breaking away province and beyond; a devastating war has spread across the Caucasus causing death, destruction and displacement of populations. All wars are terrible -- even the legitimate ones where country, freedom and survival at are at stake. But this war is particularly unnecessary, could have been avoided and above all is wrong; in fact I call it the perfect wrong war.


Unfortunately, when battles are raging with tanks, artillery, bombs and all sort of firepower, it becomes more difficult to see the substantive issues clearly than before the confrontation began. For example, it becomes more pressing to reach a cease fire, provide medical attention, create Red Cross corridors, stop ethnic cleansing, human rights breaches and take care of refugees, than to investigate who began the hostilities, what provoked it, what are the local claims and what international equation has permitted such an onslaught. And to make it more complicated, rushed journalistic reporting -- often biased -- confuses public opinion endlessly. In short, once the bullets fly, media sensationalism explodes and political agendas creep in.


Let's review the battle of arguments in the South Ossetia conflict and try to analyze the essence while keeping an eye on the bigger picture, the one that affects democracies' national security and international efforts against terror forces.

(continues)
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/...fect_wron.html

[Troubleshooter]

All of this is funny, because Bush looked into Putin's eyes and saw the soul of a good man...

[xoxoxoBruce]

Re: Merc's link, http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/...fect_wron.html

That's the first explanation I've seen that makes sense. I don't know if it's accurate, but it sounds logical.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by BigV

To answer your last question, the "Ohioans" in question might be described as Chippewa or Delaware or Erie. This has happened. A futuristic example has even entered the language by the Borg "You will be assimilated."

I think some members Lakota tribe in the Midwest did try to declare independence. I don't really know the result of this.


My thoughts on the Georgia-Russia-South Ossetia conflict have been summed up pretty well here. Big conflict of interests that probably can never be solved without big sacrifices by South Ossetia. But that doesn't mean that this is their fault, just that they are the minority in this situation which puts them at a natural disadvantage.

[TheMercenary]

Missile shield accord draws Russian fire
By Isabel Gorst in Moscow and Jan Cienski in Warsaw

Published: August 15 2008 03:00 | Last updated: August 15 2008 18:09

Moscow lashed out at Washington and Warsaw on Friday, saying the plan to site a US anti-missile defence shield in Poland would undermine the global balance of power and put Poland at risk of nuclear attack.

Washington and Warsaw reached a preliminary agreement on Thursday to build part of the missile defence shield in Poland, station US Patriot missiles there and bolster the two countries’ military co-operation.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ec3816b6-6...0779fd18c.html

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

All of this is funny, because Bush looked into Putin's eyes and saw the soul of a good man...

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That's the first explanation I've seen that makes sense. I don't know if it's accurate, but it sounds logical.

I don't remember that phrase being attributed to Bush. I do remember reports that Bush said he looked him in the eye and got a sense of his soul. Perhaps he did, perhaps he saw a kindred soul, one with a similar affinity for the expansion of executive authority. Goodness knows they each have dramatically pushed the boundaries of their respective offices.

I think Bush recognized his own soul when he looked into Putin's eyes.

[xoxoxoBruce]

My comment was in response to Merc's linked article, not Troubleshooters post.

[aliasyzy]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

What I think is most interesting is the timing of the invasion. Who stands to gain by either encouraging or deciding to this invasion? When the eyes of the world are on China, I wonder.

I guess mostly China is probably happy people are talking about some other arseholes instead of Tibet for a while.

No, no, no. We think Georgia used Olympic to plan for a surprise attack. The war stole our show and spoiled a traditional olympic truce.

As for Tibet, everybody could have their personal view. But, not much of them really know anything about it, except a little well-manipulated news and their imagination.

[aliasyzy]

I don't think people should blame russia for this confict.

It's Mr. Saakashvili who started this war stupidly and recklessly. Maybe he thought sending 2,000 soldiers in iraq would be enough to scare russians to death, or to get US into a pointless war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

[aliasyzy]