Ding Dong, the witch is dead

[Griff]

Setting aside the whole death tax argument, what is rich? $300k in assets? I don't think so, not for a lifetime of saving. I worry that we'll so disincentivise (sp?) saving that we'll all blow it off and end up on the dole.

[9th Engineer]

I'm stuck on the death tax issue because I hate seeing people get money they haven't earned personally (any and all people included), but I also don't like the idea of the government just conviscating any money you don't spend while alive. (Hey, I suppose this could be spun to increase spending. After they pass 70 all those old codgers with 10M sitting around will have to drop it on stuff as fast as possible )

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

You'll get a bigger check if you're on welfare. If you pay taxes, though, you will pay more when Democrats have the reins. Wait, that's not entirely true this time around.....Republicans were spending money like drunken sailors. But now the death tax will come back, and my super rich parents will now pay taxes on the money they already paid taxes on when they die. Their financial planner estimated that their estate was worth about $300k before. With the inheritance tax subtracted, it's worth far less. I can't remember the number, but they told me last night that when it was divided amongst the 3 kids, we'd have enough for a downpayment on a modest house each. Thank goodness we have had all that extra ill-gotten gain taken from us and given to government programs. Now YOU can have some of it. Buy me lunch, at least?

You make $600/month after taxes, Noodle? Damn, if I were you, I'd look for a day job. I'll save my $10.00/month (that's TEN) foood stamp card and buy you lunch if you're ever in the 4-corners area.

[Tonchi]

Richard Pombo, author of the bill to sell off Park Service lands to finance "education", is out out out!!!! And Wikipedia has already been updated

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

But now the death tax will come back, and my super rich parents will now pay taxes on the money they already paid taxes on when they die. Their financial planner estimated that their estate was worth about $300k before. With the inheritance tax subtracted, it's worth far less. I can't remember the number, but they told me last night that when it was divided amongst the 3 kids, we'd have enough for a downpayment on a modest house each. Thank goodness we have had all that extra ill-gotten gain taken from us and given to government programs. Now YOU can have some of it. Buy me lunch, at least?

Noodle, your folks need a new financial planner. There are ways around the "death tax."

[Shawnee123]

Well, noodle, you have successfully turned me into a bad guy in the eyes of cellarites, after you began attacking me when I pointed out that the tax breaks never affected me, therefore I would not be affected if some taxes were to increase (which, as I pointed out, is just another yawn in the "taxing dems" rhetoric that seems to be all you can point to.)

You accused me of being a welfare queen. Now you accuse me of wanting a cut. I have never asked anyone for anything. I have never taken a dime from a government program (for a short period of time some years ago I collected a couple months unemployment, but we taxpayers pay for that ahead of time.)

Everyone in my family has money. I have never been the ladder climbing type, choosing instead to work to help people get an education. It doesn't pay well. I live simply. I don't want to make a big profit on my taxes every year. I fill out my simple 1040A (yes, I fill it out, I don't go to HR Block for a rapid refund; I pay every year.) This is the life I have chosen. However, I am more than allowed to question you when you start with the "poor rich" routine, and use that as your only argument as to how bad the democrats are going to fuck things up.

I overreacted, yes. You hit a hot button. I am in a situation where I am counting every one of MY pennies to get my life in good order. But now you insinuate that I am one of the hate mongers around here. That hurts me almost as much as the fact that the cellarites who know my kind heart didn't say "whoa dude, you got that wrong." Though I will argue a point or two, and will come out of the corner angrily when accused of not being a viable part of society, I have more than once given support and caring to these dwellars who I only know through these messages, because I see the good in people. I had grown to really like you. Then you essentially called me trash. Why would I not react?

I give of myself every day. People I know think I'm wonderful because I always find the time to compliment, to listen, to smile. Your judgment of me, while perhaps casting shadows on the viewpoints of others in these threads, does not in any way change the person that I am.

You say you have me on ignore. That's just as well. You won't hear this any more than you hear anything else you choose not to hear. It seems that you have had disagreements, albeit often friendly ones, with other members, and this was your way of pointing a finger at how mean people are to you.

Thanks for all your support, my friends.

[yesman065]

This is exactly why I avoid politics like the plague. You two are both good people in your own ways, one simple misunderstanding ignited a lot of "hate" and dissent. Why don't both of you take a deep breath and relax. It'll be OK.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

I'm stuck on the death tax issue because I hate seeing people get money they haven't earned personally (any and all people included), but I also don't like the idea of the government just conviscating any money you don't spend while alive. (Hey, I suppose this could be spun to increase spending. After they pass 70 all those old codgers with 10M sitting around will have to drop it on stuff as fast as possible )

If someone's *parents* make money, the *recipient* didn't earn it personally.

Why are you hung up on the "people getting something they didn't earn" thing? Society takes care of those who can't take care of themselves. If you were disabled, you would get the same benefit. Don't get me wrong, there'll be abuse of welfare, just like big oil getting corporate welfare when they're making gobs of money. Do you begrudge a single mother of three getting food stamps because the guy down the block is capable of working, but chooses instead to live on the piitance that welfare gives him?

[Trilby]

[/QUOTE=mrnoodle]I'm tired, and due for a little Cellar break. That will come as a relief to some of you, but I hope the rest take a look at who, consistently, are the players when hate starts getting thrown around.[quote]

Since noodle is taking a break I know he won't respond to this but I'll say it anyway:

This is noodles modus operandi. He likes to try to get the wagons of the "good, decent" people to circle 'round him and he likes to throw punches at people who aren't even a part of the discussion. Noodle casts a pretty decent amount of hate around here himself. He excuses himself by couching it in terms of "I'm just a poor, sinning Chrisitian who often falls short..." so we're supposed to forgive him no matter what he says or does to hurt people. The people who hurt noodle are baaad, baaad people while he remains forever charitable and kind and most importantly well-meaning
and the rest of us just suck and go out of our way to harm him.

and BTW, my parents are fabulously wealthy. I don't rub my hands together in greedy glee thinking of all I'll inherit when they die. I guess I'm just not like that.

Oh, and another thing: I don't dislike noodle coz he's a Christian...I dislike him for himself. He's really quite the baby boy.

[Shawnee123]

Thank you Brianna. I can't believe I let him get to me like that. You have put it back into perspective.

[Undertoad]

Having watched people (usu. my age and younger) with inheritances act as if they were Lotto winnings, any money not gotten by the Death Tax will soon enter the economy as taxes on other stuff.

You have to be fair: you have to look at the Death Tax in two ways. You look at it, first, from the inheritee's position ("free money!"), which says tax the hell out of it, appealing to the American instinct not to reward anyone who didn't earn it.

Then, you have to look at it from the original breadwinner's position. They (typically) earned the money in the economy; they (usually) did it by being productive and/or making good decisions that (often) grew the economy while the wealth was being used/invested. It's their money free and clear; they should be able to decide what to do with it, rather than to face one last time the gummint's slice. Particularly at death when one's lifetime should be honored and praised, if due, and not subject to the usual rude accounting.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Then, you have to look at it from the original breadwinner's position. They (typically) earned the money in the economy; they (usually) did it by being productive and/or making good decisions that (often) grew the economy while the wealth was being used/invested. It's their money free and clear; they should be able to decide what to do with it, rather than to face one last time the gummint's slice.

That sounds like an argument against the gift tax as well.

And hey, the sales tax, too. The money you use to buy something was already taxed. Why should the government get one last slice just because you're picking up a new shirt?

Another thing to keep in mind is that an inheritance that is big enough to trigger the estate tax is usually primarily made up of tax-deferred money, on which tax has not been paid. The deferred tax is replaced with the estate tax, saving the inheritee lots of time, and possibly money.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Thank you Brianna. I can't believe I let him get to me like that. You have put it back into perspective.

As near as I can tell you're both good and decent people. We all get pissed about stuff. The cool thing about this place is you can always try again unless you cross the intollerable line, which is well over the horizon from your position.

[BigV]

disclosure: I am in favor of the inheritance tax.

The part that (actually, one of the parts) chaps me is the whole "I already paid taxes on it" argument. Money's not taxed, not even once. We use money to represent value, as a fungible, tangible hunk of value. And what gets taxed is the *transaction*.

You can have a stack of hundred dollar bills. But if you don't move them, they're not "taxable". They're also not very valuable either. Money needs to move to exercise its value. And it's that movement that is taxed.

You pay to cross the bridge, not for being on one side or the other.

[Griff]

I've heard pretty good arguments for big time confiscation of assetts after death centered on getting people to be productive in their own right. Thing is, these kinds of taxes will be avoided by the same kind of people that take their parents assetts before putting them in nursing homes at our expense. Tax laws ought to be enforceable. It does seem pretty callous to take a multi-generation business a family has poured its heart into. I'm pretty leary of the destructive power of taxes generally. Maybe we should look at consumption taxes... *shrug* I'm pretty tired so I may be making no sense...