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Old 04-27-2020, 04:26 PM   #271
tw
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Originally Posted by sexobon View Post
Your references are vague. The accounting was for many types of masks, not just those effective against the virus.
All masks are effective. Some more than others. Claims or denials say nothing useful without numbers. Even a cloth bandanna is will block 50% of a virus. Other masks will do 70% or 80%. The N95 masks only do 95%.

All masks are effective. Even covering a face with a hand does something useful. Some solutions are more or less effective than others. Any mask is better than none.
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Old 04-27-2020, 04:34 PM   #272
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From the NY Times of 27 April 2020: 260,000 Words, Full of Self-Praise, From Trump on the Virus
Quote:
Three journalists from The New York Times reviewed more than 260,000 words spoken by President Trump during the pandemic. Here's what we learned.
What a buffoon.

Due to his 30 second attention span, he probably thought Bugs Bunny was praising him.

Quote:
on April 13, Mr. Trump insisted that governors were so satisfied with his performance they hadn't asked for anything on a recent conference call. "There wasn't even a statement of like, 'We think you should do this or that,'" he said. "I heard it was, like, just a perfect phone call."
Being an adult who is clearly still a child, he only heard what he wanted to hear. Amazing that a few here still do not understand that - even after he praised Nazis, White Supremacists, and the KKK.

He could help educate us. Demonstrate in a next press conference how to drink Clorox. That would put a bright light on everything. A bright light, he told us, also would cure a pandemic.

After his Friday news conference melt down, he now fears questions from the patriotic press - domestic and international. They do not ask the right questions. It does not praise him. Worse, he cannot say "Your fired." That is probably really frustrating for his ego.
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Old 04-27-2020, 05:20 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by tw View Post
All masks are effective. Some more than others. Claims or denials say nothing useful without numbers. Any mask is better than none.
Numbers can lie. They don't take into account human behavior. 98% is a statistical certainty, 95% a statistical probability regardless of human behavior. People may take excessive risks in other areas of infection control to their detriment with masks less than 95% effective.

Case in point: years ago, lumbar support belts were recommended by OSHA for workers doing heavy lifting. Employers wanted them used to reduce employee down time and workmen's compensation claims. Insurance companies wanted them used to reduce payouts which they wouldn't give unless the support belts were being worn at time of injury. Governments wanted them used to demonstrate their concern for the health and welfare of their constituents.. The prevailing thought was that anything was better than nothing and OSHA went along with it.

In practical application, employees started doing heavy lifting that they wouldn't have previously done, without help, thinking that the support belts would protect them and give them more time to do their jobs rather than waiting for assistance. The number of injuries shot up dramatically and it became an industry crisis. Employers balked, insurance companies balked, and governments balked as injured employees sued anyone they could over the misrepresentation that they would be safer wearing support belts; because, anything was better than nothing. OSHA not only retracted their recommendation, they specifically recommended against it.

Using numbers without factoring in human behavior is a fool's game.
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Old 04-28-2020, 06:17 PM   #274
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I hear the specific how-to to make lift belts most effective is to do exercises to strengthen the entire core. At least, quite a routine of planking both prone and supine -- grow abs.
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Old 05-01-2020, 12:09 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sexobon View Post
Numbers can lie. They don't take into account human behavior. 98% is a statistical certainty, 95% a statistical probability regardless of human behavior. People may take excessive risks in other areas of infection control to their detriment with masks less than 95% effective.

Case in point: years ago, lumbar support belts were recommended by OSHA for workers doing heavy lifting. Employers wanted them used to reduce employee down time and workmen's compensation claims. Insurance companies wanted them used to reduce payouts which they wouldn't give unless the support belts were being worn at time of injury. Governments wanted them used to demonstrate their concern for the health and welfare of their constituents.. The prevailing thought was that anything was better than nothing and OSHA went along with it.

In practical application, employees started doing heavy lifting that they wouldn't have previously done, without help, thinking that the support belts would protect them and give them more time to do their jobs rather than waiting for assistance. The number of injuries shot up dramatically and it became an industry crisis. Employers balked, insurance companies balked, and governments balked as injured employees sued anyone they could over the misrepresentation that they would be safer wearing support belts; because, anything was better than nothing. OSHA not only retracted their recommendation, they specifically recommended against it.

Using numbers without factoring in human behavior is a fool's game.

Really good point.
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Old 05-01-2020, 12:12 PM   #276
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From what I have read there really is not a medical consensus on whether large scale mask wearing in public would help against the spread of Covid-19. Its not a simple question. There is the potential for it to prove counter productive and end up increasing the wearer's chance of contracting it, even as it is reducing their likelihood of transmitting it.

And there are clear dangers in insisting everybody does so if it puts pressure on supplies for those we know for sure need them, like front line medical staff.
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Old 05-01-2020, 11:28 PM   #277
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I don't see how a mask would increase your risk unless the mask picks up the virus and you mishandle it when you take it off at home. But then if the virus is on the mask you probably would have inhaled it without the mask anyway. I'm subscribing to the "can't hurt" school.
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Old 05-01-2020, 11:50 PM   #278
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Perhaps you missed this post.
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Old 05-02-2020, 01:32 AM   #279
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I didn't miss it, I don't buy it. First of all he's taking about bandannas and cloth, not masks. But the droplets landing and evaporating so the virus will be sucked through is so far fetched it's ridiculous. I'd bet the odds of getting hit by lightning, hitting the lottery, and winning Publisher's clearinghouse all on the same day are better than that happening. If you are getting hit with droplets you're in a cloud of airborne virus also. Yes it can.

But the point is a mask may help, but won't hurt, and will prevent you from being shot or stoned by a mob.
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Old 05-02-2020, 01:45 AM   #280
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Uh huh, uh huh, of course, of course.

Unless they shoot you to steal your mask.

Lie down on the couch and tell us about your childhood. Did you have a security blanket that you pulled up over your mouth and nose when you took a nap?
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Old 05-02-2020, 09:59 AM   #281
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No I didn't but it wouldn't hurt, neither will a mask. I hate 'em, even the dust masks make breathing difficult, also because I have no clue what people are saying behind 'em. There's also the fact that if I contract this I'm dead.
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Old 05-02-2020, 10:33 AM   #282
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I thought the idea of masks or scarves was that, unless they are the whatevr they call the proper masks that filter out the finer particles, the main reason for wearing one isnt to protect the wearer but to reduce the chances the wearer might inadvertently spread the virus if they happen to be presymptomatic or asymptomatic.
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Old 05-02-2020, 10:35 AM   #283
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I wear them when I rob people.
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Old 05-02-2020, 11:52 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
Really good point.
He simply forgets that a person with N95 mask, worn improperly, is still much better protected than someone wearing a bandanna improperly. Even if worn incorrectly, a superior mask remains superior protection.

It is hard to not wear a mask improperly. It covers a mouth and nose. It fits on a face. Who, other than a 4 years old, cannot figure that out?

Quote:
the main reason for wearing one isnt to protect the wearer but to reduce the chances the wearer might inadvertently spread the virus if they happen to be presymptomatic or asymptomatic.
Exactly. We do social distancing, masks, etc to protect the most 'at risk' people - the medical industry. They will die if too many are infected at any one time.

Eventually 60% to 70% of us must be infected to end this. If that takes many more months, then less doctors and nurses will die.

Currently somewhere between 5% and 15% of us have been infected. In NYC, that number may be 35%. Techniques (such as masks or bandanna) only reduce a number of infected people at any one time.

We wear masks to not infect others. It does much less to protect ourselves.

Last edited by tw; 05-03-2020 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 05-03-2020, 12:16 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by tw View Post
We wear masks to not infect others. It does much less to protect ourselves.
This is true, but in both cases it's better than not.
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