10/01/02: Religion is a bunch of fucking bunk.

[perth]

Originally posted by juju

It does make them gullible. They're believing in something without first checking to see if it's true or not. Some people may think that's noble, but it's just dumb if you ask me. Doesn't anyone want to be right anymore?

no, juju. it does not make them gullible. they need something in their life that you do not. good for you, good for them. you have what you need to make you happy. they have what they need to make them happy. you complain that christians lump you into categories and in the same breath lump me into the category of people responsible for you not being able to buy beer on sundays. im not happy about that either. but i buy my beer on saturday.

you insist that someone prove it to you. but i defy you to disprove it.

~james

[darclauz]

Originally posted by perth
jack chick is a nutjob. there are nutjobs on both sides of the argument. religion is not a "crutch for weak-minded people" and mr. ventura would have us believe. yes, there are weak-minded people who use religion as a crutch. but broad generalisations and uninformed judgement are just as dangerous. to say that anyone who follows any religion of any kind is weak-minded is as arrogant and ignorant as any of the nonsense chick writes.

~james

and what's more... how much more abuse does a christian get than a mainstream, democrat loving, pro-abortion, christian-bashing liberal? i mean, it takes no free-thinking at ALL to follow the way of most free-wheeling media middleclass america. but it takes a lot of..well, moxie...to stand up and be counted when christians are objects of ridicule (not that we won't be laughing last).

[juju]

I guess it just depends on what you value more: truth, or comfort?

In my opinion, sacrificing truth for comfort is a very poor decision. I'd go so far as to say it's dumb. That does not mean i'm saying people who do this are dumb. Some of them are very respectable and intelligent. I'm just saying that it's a very poor mental strategy.

[perth]

Originally posted by juju
I guess it just depends on what you value more: truth, or comfort?

exactly. you seek truth. thats a noble pursuit. i seek comfort. not so much for me, mind. i need to know my family is taken care of as best i know how. so at some point comfort becomes more important than truth. if its any consolation, i have absolutely no intention of ever forcing religion on my son. i want him to pursue truth as well. at least until he realizes that in his life, he needs something else. and that day may never come. all i ask is that when that time comes, he respect my decisions the way i respect his. i am well aware that my choices may not be the right ones. but they are my choices and i will stand responsible for them no matter what the consequences. you may think im deluding myself, and maybe i am. but in my life i have seen what i choose to believe is proof of a higher power.

~james

[perth]

Originally posted by juju
I guess it just depends on what you value more: truth, or comfort?

In my opinion, sacrificing truth for comfort is a very poor decision. I'd go so far as to say it's dumb. That does not mean i'm saying people who do this are dumb. Some of them are very respectable and intelligent. I'm just saying that it's a very poor mental strategy.

here i think youre getting it and then you have to go editing your post calling anyone who disagrees with you (despite your dislaimer) dumb. do you not realize that by saying that you are doing the same thing you hate so much? you pass judgement on people you dont even know, based only on opinion and with no basis in fact.

~james

[juju]

Originally posted by darclauz
and what's more... how much more abuse does a christian get than a mainstream, democrat loving, pro-abortion, christian-bashing liberal? i mean, it takes no free-thinking at ALL to follow the way of most free-wheeling media middleclass america. but it takes a lot of..well, moxie...to stand up and be counted when christians are objects of ridicule (not that we won't be laughing last).

I'd say the levels of criticism are about equal. What's your point? Liberals are not a majority and Christians aren't a minority.

Also, if you're suggesting that Christians are freethinkers, that's such a laugh! I'm sure you and Perth have thought out your beliefs, but the vast majority of Christians raise their kids to be Christian. Kids don't have the mental faculties to understand philosophy. So they just believe what they're told. These kinds of Christians are what i'd call brainwashed. That's not to say there aren't brainwashed liberals, but at least both camps have their own fair share.

[juju]

Originally posted by perth
here i think youre getting it and then you have to go editing your post calling anyone who disagrees with you (despite your dislaimer) dumb. do you not realize that by saying that you are doing the same thing you hate so much? you pass judgement on people you dont even know, based only on opinion and with no basis in fact.

Well, I like to think that i'm judging the decision itself, not the person. I don't write people off like that. Like I said, i'm not saying they're dumb. Just that the decision itself is. Hell, I make dumb decisions all the time. Doesn't make me a bad person.

[perth]

Originally posted by juju

Well, I like to think that i'm judging the decision itself, not the person. I don't write people off like that. Like I said, i'm not saying they're dumb. Just that the decision itself is. Hell, I make dumb decisions all the time. Doesn't make me a bad person.

i have nothing but respect for your opinion, i want to make sure you know that in case i have been rude. i just want to make sure you know that people have many different reasons for their beliefs, not just gullibility or weak-mindedness. what set me off was not so much your comments as it was the jesse ventura quote. its that lack of respect that i find intolerable. i dont expect anyone to agree with me, but i do expect people to respect the choices i make.

~james

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by perth
what set me off was not so much your comments as it was the jesse ventura quote. its that lack of respect that i find intolerable. i dont expect anyone to agree with me, but i do expect people to respect the choices i make.

IIRC, Ventura did a bit of back-pedaling later on the quote. I do agree with it to a degree. Organized religion can be a sham, and can be a crutch for weak-minded people. And it can encourage people to "go out and stick their noses in other people's business." But I don't think all of organized religion is that way, nor are all people who follow an organized religion weak-minded. Not to mention, not all religions are hell-bent on the evangelical tip.

I think the biggest problem with organized religion is not with the religion itself, but with the worshippers. If the faithful would just smoke a bowl and recognize the fact that religion and God are subjective, the world would be a much better place.

[perth]

If the faithful would just smoke a bowl and recognize the fact that religion and God are subjective, the world would be a much better place.

amen. the problem with christianity, as i see it, is that christians do not behave the way they claim to behave. to behave in a 'christlike' manner nowadays seems to mean 'say terrible things about people who disagree with you. treat people who think differently from you like shit. hate nonchristians, but pretend (poorly) that you really really care. and above all else, be smug'. if people truly behaved the way the christ of the bible behaved, we wouldnt have this problem. he was all about compassion and kindness. not once did he ever accuse or cast judgement.

~james

[Undertoad]

Dar, you and your buddy Christians who want to tell me about how rough it is for you because you are ridiculed, bashed, or repressed can...

...simply...

...Kiss My Big Fat White Ass.

You don't KNOW from ridicule. You don't KNOW from repression. And you don't KNOW from bashing. I really don't know how to put it any other way.

[warch]

Here's an analysis of my search for god or whatever:

I'm offended by organized religions and congregations that play accounting games, are based on fear, couch hate in translations of scripture, claim to be "the chosen", proselytize, speak of love then damn "others", subordinate women, and are so focused on "the next world" they fuck up this one, or miss it altogether- the hidden or not so hidden hypocracies.

I appreciate religions that welcome, comfort, and support, inspire peace and celebrate human dignity, that are concerned with right now, and help people with no conversion payback in mind. I've personally never seen these elements consistently practiced in any organized congregation.

So I'm on my own with my spirituality and thats as it should be.

And as for "Moxie" to stand tall as self-righteous "we'll see who has the last laugh" self-proclaimed Christian? You're best left to your ridiculous, deluded competition.

Amen, Sista Warch (and Brotha Tony).

[perth]

So I'm on my own with my spirituality and thats as it should be.

spirituality should be deeply personal. i dont agree with the idea that in order to be christian you have to beat your beliefs into others. this is where things like blue laws come from. this is where the ill will and hatred come from. im not interested in that. throughout my life, ive been told that actions speak louder than words. but then you have people like jerry "i hate everybody" falwell spitting the worst kind of venom. it doesnt matter if hes the nicest guy youve ever met when behind closed doors (though i seriously doubt that) what he says in public affects his 'cause' more than anything he does. the actions that really count are what you do when no one is looking.

i dont think anybody has gotten it right and i doubt they ever will. i dont attend church except for say christmas and easter. the last church i attended was left by the wayside when the pastor began using the pulpit to tell me who to vote for.

i dont generally like to talk about my beliefs and i really dont know why i spoke up in this thread in the first place. a lot of what has been said can apply to many religions. ive seen muslims persecuted since 9/11 just for being muslim. its the broad generalizations i find offensive. being spiritual is not a bad thing until you decide everyones beliefs must align with yours. that goes for some atheists ive met.

~james

[Xugumad]

perth
i dont expect anyone to agree with me, but i do expect people to respect the choices i make.

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H.L. Mencken

And some people will tell you the truth: your wife is ugly.

The 'choice' made will be respected when those who associate themselves with Christianity and who seem to have considerable influence in US politics stop backing racist, sexist, homophobic, violent, murderous policies.

I don't believe that they are the ultimate image of Christianity, and I find it abhorrent that they have become the public face of American religion, the same way that I abhor that violent Muslims seem to have become the public face of Islam.

The day the last abortion doctor has been shot or bombed, the day science is not suppressed in favour of dogma, the day religion does not cause death and suffering, the day women are not mutilated, beaten, or killed because of supposedly religious reasons, the day that primitive people are aided in preventing death, rather than lectured and left to die, that very same day, the voices of dissent will fall silent, and Christianity (and religion in general) will be accepted as the voice of progress, rather than oppression.

Until then, I - as a Christian - am ashamed to be associated with people who actively pervert everything that is good and commendable about the Judeo-Christian religion, and organized religion in general. Abandon dogma, whether it is Judeo-Christian, Muslim, or otherwise. Western civilization has moved towards progress, enlightenment, and tolerance - dogma is a throwback to an age we fought so very hard to leave behind.

X.

PS: "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen." (Falwell on 9/11; his later apology was a transparent sham)