The utterly pointless Clint Eastwood Thread

[dar512]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I think part of what lj is referring to is the tiresome interjection of Christ into every last topic, even if it requires a tire iron to get it there. We've all seen and been annoyed by those types and it doesn't have to be Christianity. I'm sure I've been one over Libertarianism in the past.

I agree. Even someone going on and on about their hobbies can get tiring. But again, that wasn't the case here. If you go to a Nintendo site, don't be surprised to see a lot of text about Nintendo games.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by Elspode

I think I'll start professing my Pagan values with every thread. That ought to be fun. Let's go see what trouble I can stir up!

Pagan proselytization...what a great idea! After all, everyone loves it when the Mormons and the Witnesses come knocking on their doors. I'm gonna need a magazine or something...

Did I miss something. Is someone fragging the Cellar with Christian verbiage?

[dar512]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

well, how the hell was i supposed to know it was on a christian conservative website! now i feel like a tool for calling mr norris a cunt.






not

"The greatest of all weaknesses is the fear of appearing weak."
-- J. B. Bossuet

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by dar512

I agree. Even someone going on and on about their hobbies can get tiring. But again, that wasn't the case here. If you go to a Nintendo site, don't be surprised to see a lot of text about Nintendo games.

why are you being such a dick?

i already said that i didn't realize that it was a christian site. and after looking a third time, i still can discerne no obvious mention of their pro christian viewpoint. And I still think he sounds like a cunt. cunt cunt cunt.

Originally Posted by darMcBitchysnatch512

"The greatest of all weaknesses is the fear of appearing weak."
-- J. B. Bossuet

so. you are intimating that i fear to appear weak? And by quoting some obscure putz, attempting to sound superior at the same time? Well, I certainly don't feel weak. or afraid of fearing to be seen as weak.

In your real life, David, are you prone to taking things that are plainly meant in jest and lamely trying to condescend to the perpetrator by taking it seriously and reacting as though they are classless buffoons that meant it literally? just curious. Had you any clue, you'd understand that while I routinely appear to be a hammer, I am actually very wise and genial. It seems that you need literal explanations from people. you know me. don't pretend that you don't.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The point that you're missing is that becoming a follower of Christ isn't like picking up a new hobby or rooting for a football team. It becomes an integral part of your life. You call it "spouting religion", but that's taking a very short view of an all-encompassing life choice. The fact is, it means surrendering your personal morality for the morality of Christ (something I continually fail at, but strive for). You say it's a bad thing, I say it's a good thing. I look forward to your theory, nonetheless.

If it were, in FACT, an all encompassing, life changing life choice, you'd do it right. you wouldn't continually fail at it. You're content with striving. it's all that is required by your religion, right? that and believing that you'll be forgiven if you fail, right?

in fact, there seems to be an unstated expectation for you to fail to follow your rules. the assumption that you are inherently flawed. original sin. after all, jesus wouldn;t have been very useful if there was nothing to forgive, or sins to die for, right?

So, it makes me think that most people that have 'faith' are willing to surrender their responsibility for holding themselves to their own morals. Why do you need a church to cajole you? why an idol to feel inferior to?

if that helps you, great. really. but the attitude of superiority that so often goes hand in hand with it is insufferable to me. I have my own values that are probably different from yours. the difference is that because they are personally mine, i have no expectation that you should adhere to them.

religions require that you fall in line with predetermined sets of morals and cause you to feel like you;ve failed if you do it wrong. I have said before that i'm a pickandchoosist. this is why. It's not that i'm an immoral person, and think that religions are wrong. I just think that organized religion is mainly about exerting power over it's followers. And the followers sanction the influence by feeling guilt at their failure to conform to the mold of the perfect follower. i just think your religious philosophy should be a personal and private matter.

[fertilegypsy]

Play Misty for Me. (Utterly pointless AND Clint Eastward).

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

If it were, in FACT, an all encompassing, life changing life choice, you'd do it right. you wouldn't continually fail at it. You're content with striving. it's all that is required by your religion, right? that and believing that you'll be forgiven if you fail, right?

in fact, there seems to be an unstated expectation for you to fail to follow your rules. the assumption that you are inherently flawed. original sin. after all, jesus wouldn;t have been very useful if there was nothing to forgive, or sins to die for, right?

Still missing the point. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Striving is the best you can do. I don't know, but I think it could conceivably be possible to stop sinning altogether. However, you would still be tainted by your previous sins.

All it means is that there's no way to earn salvation through good works. The sacrifice had to be perfect, and the only perfect man was Jesus.

The idea that sin is expected is off the mark. Here's chapter 3 of Romans, it explains it in context.

Romans 3
God's Faithfulness
1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge."[a]

5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

No One is Righteous
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

So, it makes me think that most people that have 'faith' are willing to surrender their responsibility for holding themselves to their own morals. Why do you need a church to cajole you? why an idol to feel inferior to?

Not an idol, the most high God. If you can't feel inferior to your creator without developing a complex, your ego is a bit inflated.

if that helps you, great. really. but the attitude of superiority that so often goes hand in hand with it is insufferable to me. I have my own values that are probably different from yours. the difference is that because they are personally mine, i have no expectation that you should adhere to them.

The attitude that you call "superiority" is not. We are all equal. We're all equally sinful, too. When someone mentions Christ, it's because they want to share his truth, not lord it over someone because they're so morally superior. The opposite is true -- in accepting Christ, I've realized that I'm not worthy of salvation on my own.

What you want is for people to hold their faith in Christ in as low esteem as possible, so as not to insinuate that Christ is lord. If we did that, we would not worship God, but something of our own creation. The God of heaven and earth is not a tidbit to be chosen from a sampler plate of human-concocted deities, put on a little shelf somewhere, and only brought out when no one is going to be offended.

religions require that you fall in line with predetermined sets of morals and cause you to feel like you;ve failed if you do it wrong. I have said before that i'm a pickandchoosist. this is why. It's not that i'm an immoral person, and think that religions are wrong. I just think that organized religion is mainly about exerting power over it's followers. And the followers sanction the influence by feeling guilt at their failure to conform to the mold of the perfect follower. i just think your religious philosophy should be a personal and private matter.

You feel like you've failed when you sin not because organized religion told you so, but because when Christ is in your heart, you feel it inside. If you accepted Christ, yet never entered a church building in your life, you would be conscious of your sin.

edited because I overstepped my bounds at the end.

[Flint]

Why are some Christians so consistently confused about whether those outside of their faith will be swayed by rationalizations that require the listener to share their beliefs, or, sometimes even recite Bible verses ad nauseum (to a non-Christian)? It's pretty clear that somebody outside of that belief system doesn't put the same weight behind those words, therefore they aren't a good way to convince that person.

[mrnoodle]

I can't convince anyone to accept Christ. All I'm doing is clarifying, to the best of my limited ability, what someone who believes in Christ actually believes, and not allow us to continue to be defined by people who don't know what they're talking about. I use the bible to illustrate it so that you know that it isn't coming from my own head. Sorry that makes you uncomfortable, but it's how I roll, baby. [gang sign]

[Flint]

Okay, I see what you mean.

It's just that, you do realize that somebody who doesn't "believe in the Bible" isn't going to accept the Bible as a valid reference source, right? If you're not trying to convince them of anything, that's not an issue, I guess. But...aren't you supposed to be recruiting souls for the Lord?

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

.. I am actually very wise and genial...

Hee hee. You almost said genital.

[Flint]

lumberjim is a genital

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

... really. but the attitude of superiority that so often goes hand in hand with it is insufferable to me. I have my own values that are probably different from yours. the difference is that because they are personally mine, i have no expectation that you should adhere to them.

religions require that you fall in line with predetermined sets of morals and cause you to feel like you;ve failed if you do it wrong. I have said before that i'm a pickandchoosist. this is why. It's not that i'm an immoral person, and think that religions are wrong. I just think that organized religion is mainly about exerting power over it's followers. And the followers sanction the influence by feeling guilt at their failure to conform to the mold of the perfect follower. i just think your religious philosophy should be a personal and private matter.

Hall of Fame material.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

This is my opinion, and not anything to do with God: you are desperately afraid of appearing less than totally perfect in your own life, and the fact that Christians are supposed to have the attitude of servants makes you nauseous. Chuck Norris worshipping God as his superior is the embodiment of weakness to you. He never mentioned organized religion once. Yet as your argument supporting "chuck norris is a cunt", you put the blame on organized religion. I call BS. I remember when you used to be questioning about faith, and were searching with an open mind (or appeared to be). Sounds like something scared you off, and all you have left is anger about it. Again, my opinion, and potentially wrong.

I have no anger about it. My calling chuck a cunt was intended to be funny. my sticking to it, intended to be even funnier. Fuck Chuck. i could care less if he is mr god-boy.

I have always questioned faith, and still do. I still search with an open mind. I continually refine my beliefs, but i don;t see myself having an epiphany one day and being re-born. I think that it is a bogus concept. If i 'sin', then i have to live with it. i have to own the responsibility for my actions. I can;t rely on forgiveness of some imagined diety*.

Not an idol, the most high God. If you can't feel inferior to your creator without developing a complex, your ego is a bit inflated.

If you believe literally that he is your creator, and created the heaven and earth, i agree. But why must you constantly remind yourself of it? why worship Him? To whose benefit is it? Yours? His?

When someone mentions Christ, it's because they want to share his truth, not lord it over someone because they're so morally superior.

funny. expressions come to be for a reason, usually. Lord it over. ironic in that context.

What you want is for people to hold their faith in Christ in as low esteem as possible, so as not to insinuate that Christ is lord. If we did that, we would not worship God, but something of our own creation. The God of heaven and earth is not a tidbit to be chosen from a sampler plate of human-concocted deities, put on a little shelf somewhere, and only brought out when no one is going to be offended.

Is that what i want? really?

Sometimes i think that i have some respect for your faith because you stick to your guns and plainly believe that what you're saying is right. then you say some stupid shit like that. wtf? I want xtians to hold their faith in low esteem? i wish they'd be more respectful of it.

as far as the sampler plate goes.....god is not a buffet item? all or nothing? to me the 'God of Heaven and Earth' doesn't mean what it does to you.

I think it is important to state that there are many degrees of religious believers. I have varying degrees of respect for them. If you truly believe, and you live your life according to your religion, and it is a religion that does not require you to infringe on the reality of those around you, then i actually admire you. maybe i would have admired jesus, had i known him. I probably would have detested John the Baptist.


(*And no matter how many books have been written, God is an imagined diety. You may believe in God with your very core, so to you he is absolutely real. My hunger may be very real to me, but you can't feel it, so it is unreal to you. even though you have experienced the same sensation.)

I understand your impression that i feel anger toward christianity, noodle. maybe it is a form of anger, but i see it as more a sense of.....resistance to assimilation? in america, we are hammered with christian values from every angle throughout our childhood. there is an underlying current of assumption that if you are american, and not actively involved in some other religion, that you must be christian. if youre not, your non religiousness is seen by the differences from christianity. it's the home team's religion.

[mrnoodle]

Well, at any rate, we should know by now where the other is coming from. Took 3 pages, but I'm there, personally.