Dirt poor?

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by Radar
Without taxation, you would have MORE assistance for your child. People give less to charities because they actually believe government programs are helping people.

Really? I thought people give less because...they just.don't.want to contribute.

If government today ended all of these programs and people could keep all of what they earn, non-profit charities would get donations through the roof.

You'd better hope they do. Misers would still exist, so donations would probably not go up THAT much....

At any rate, I'm still wondering how I'm stealing money that I put in the kitty for me to collect on anyway?

*irony: I just received my SSDI check today and put it in the bank, and no one is about to take that money away from me, or else I'll fucking stab them in the eyeball with a heated needle...point blank, end of story*

I have been avoiding this discussion as a pointless wate of time, but I guess I’m feeling self destructive today. How to set aside my feelings of rage and attempt to gain understanding? Well, I’ll practice on you guys, but I’ll say at the outset that I’m pessimistic about by ability to reach anyone.

I’ll start with the question of poverty first. For the sake of this discussion, lets set aside the percieved or real situation of welfare mom’s or illegal immigrants who come across the border solely to live at the US government’s expense. I’ll write merely of the plight of the disabled – a plight which I know intimately since I am only just now recovering from a long term disability myself. I am further going to limit my discussion to people who did not have private disability insurance at the onset of their disabling condition or become disabled due to an injury that was covered under workman’s comp.

There are about 7.5 million disabled Americans who fall under the criteria I listed above. Anyone who wishes to check this for themselves can start with the National Center for Disability Statistics http://www.dsc.ucsf.edu/main.php?name=publications
These 7.5 million have incomes of less than $6,000 a year (There are far more than 7.5 disabled Americans, by the way. A significant presentage of these live in poverty. I’m talking only about those who live BELOW the poverty line here).

I have experienced the temporary poverty brought on by college expenses and youthful flings of adventure. I’ve eaten bean loaf and never turned the thermostat above 55 degrees because I had to buy text books. My car has broken down thousands of miles from home and I’ve had my money and passport stolen in Mexico and had to hitch hike back to the States. There were periods in my life when my income derived solely from a minimum wage job and I drove my car mostly on gas fumes and prayed for long down hill coasts. These things were trivial compared to what I experienced as a disabled individual without private insurance in the US today.

The very worst part was the despair. I knew I could get back on my feet with medical help, but there was NO medical help, just the occasional band aid here and there. I wanted to work, but I couldn’t. Time after time my neurological impairments caused employers to fire me from even the most menial jobs. After a while I lost all hope along with everything else. I went through every penny I had saved or invested, sold off every last thing I owned of any value in my bitter struggle to survive. When all my resources were exhausted I found myself out on the streets and I ended up camping on National Forest land for three months until I was able to find shelter indoors. I had food stamps but they only give you enough to buy your ramen and rice and beans for 3 weeks of the month. The final week of the month I went hungry unless somebody gave me the $3.00 to drive from my camp site to the nearest food bank in a town 30 miles from my camp. As a woman alone, I chose this isolation for reasons of personal safety. I figured my survival odds were higher than on the pavement of the urban area where I had been living. I didn’t have the money to buy a full month’s prescription of the expensive neurological meds I had been prescribed. I would run out of these at the end of each month as well, and be rendered almost incapable of functioning.

Each time I made the drive to the food bank I became an unwilling enemy of the state because I could not afford to insure my car of keep its plates current. In my state the penalty for driving without insurance is anywhere from 30 days to a year in jail. Sometimes I used to wonder if I wouldn’t be better off if I got pulled over because in jail I’d at least have shelter and a consistent (if not very good) supply of food. Despite the allure of jail, I lived in terror of being pulled over by the cops every time I made one of these survival runs.

The only source of distraction I had during this period was my car radio. In the isolated area I was camped in I was able to pick up a single radio station – a country/western one – that’s it. Even that I couldn’t listen to often for fear of running my car radio down. Every penny I had went to buying my meds. I had no choice because my neurological functioning deteriorated so much without them. I mean EVERY penny, too. I had no money for so much as an envelope and a stamp; no money for items of personal hygeine. If it didn’t come in my food bank box, I did without it. And always the despair, the despair, knowing that with proper medical evaluation and treatment I could do some sort of work again and knowing that without it I was doomed to a life spent living out of my car.

I waited 5 years to get medical assistance from this country. 5 long years, 4 of which I probably could have been a productive citizen again, standing on my own two feet just like I always had. Instead, I was in effect consigned to a human garbage heap while my health went steadily downhill for lack of proper medical care. My recovery has been made consiberably more complicated thanks to this long delay. I am not alone. My story has 7 .5 million variations but the people who could tell them lack the ability to be heard and, more importantly, the belief that anyone really cares to listen.

The disabled of this country are even more handicapped by the open prejudice they all too often encounter. People dismiss us as lazy druggies living off the government tit for lack of will to do better. We are all a bunch of shiftless cons in some people’s eyes. Let me tell you. There is NO government tit. Radar himself states this:
“Government keeps 85 cents of every dollar collected for overhead as opposed to 12-15 cents of every dollar for non-profits” Whatever the government does with this money, almost none of it is going to the needy disabled and charities are NOT taking up the slack.

Radar is espousing Libertarian beliefs with all the sunny innocence of a child. I’m sorry, but I don’t believe for a moment that Americans would take up the slack by an onslaught of charitable giving if their tax burden was taken away. For one thing most Americans find it incomprehensible that people could be reduced to such desperate circumstances in the good old US of A. For another, under libertarian anarchy people would remain largely uneducated about these and other issues. There would be no public libraries or school systems. The wealthy would give their children a good education. Everyone else would home school their children or forget about the whole thing entirely. On top of that, people would be too busy arming themselves to the teeth without police or fire protection. The disabled would be the last thing they thought about.

Radar advocates an end to all government services because he resents paying taxes. This is the real world, not some utopia. If the libertarians would put down their copies of Ayn Rand long enough to look out their windows, they might realize this. OK now, go ahead and attack me. I may respond or I may not. I’m feeling very tired.

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by Clodfobble
Would someone with Multiple Sclerosis have to live in a dorm with a bunch of people with Down's Syndrome, just because his muscles wouldn't enable him to work more than part-time? A lot of folks would consider it degrading, both being lumped in with people with all sorts of disabilities, as well as giving up so much independence when they really only need a little help.

Not to get off topic, but this reminded me a bit of when I started dialysis. I had to go to a clinic three times a week, and sit among older, more sickly people...people who were almost near death in some cases. This was not a comfortable situation for me for the last thing I wanted to think about was death during my early 30s. Thank goodness for peritoneal dialysis (where you can do the treatments at home, and on your own).

PS I just now looked at my post above and see any number of grammatical and spelling errors. My brain is still not hitting on all 6 cylinders, OK? No need for anyone to point this out to me. I may make spelling mistakes but this doesn't detract from either the reality or validity of what I describe.

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by marichiko
I waited 5 years to get medical assistance from this country. 5 long years, 4 of which I probably could have been a productive citizen again, standing on my own two feet just like I always had. Instead, I was in effect consigned to a human garbage heap while my health went steadily downhill for lack of proper medical care. My recovery has been made consiberably more complicated thanks to this long delay. I am not alone. My story has 7 .5 million variations but the people who could tell them lack the ability to be heard and, more importantly, the belief that anyone really cares to listen.

The disabled of this country are even more handicapped by the open prejudice they all too often encounter. People dismiss us as lazy druggies living off the government tit for lack of will to do better. We are all a bunch of shiftless cons in some people’s eyes.

Shout AMEN! I've heard that myself a number of times. And I tell anyone who thinks that of me that they are a pile of rancid dogshit and to go fuck themselves with an infected dick.

It was shitty that you had to wait five long years and had to suffer like you did. NO ONE should have to go through such crap. You could have died for fuck's sake!!!!

Let me tell you. There is NO government tit. Radar himself states this:
“Government keeps 85 cents of every dollar collected for overhead as opposed to 12-15 cents of every dollar for non-profits” Whatever the government does with this money, almost none of it is going to the needy disabled and charities are NOT taking up the slack.

Radar is espousing Libertarian beliefs with all the sunny innocence of a child. I’m sorry, but I don’t believe for a moment that Americans would take up the slack by an onslaught of charitable giving if their tax burden was taken away.

Neither do I. Think about it: suddenly, Americans can keep every single dime that they work for?? Well shit! "Hey honey, let's go on that vacation we've been dreaming about." "Wow, now we can get that luxury item that we've been saving up for!!" "How about we get that expensive bike that Johnny's been asking us about for ages?" Please! Reality check folks: as it stands now, people pick and choose which charities they want to donate to, and there are plenty that need money and don't get it.

For one thing most Americans find it incomprehensible that people could be reduced to such desperate circumstances in the good old US of A. For another, under libertarian anarchy people would remain largely uneducated about these and other issues. There would be no public libraries or school systems. The wealthy would give their children a good education. Everyone else would home school their children or forget about the whole thing entirely. On top of that, people would be too busy arming themselves to the teeth without police or fire protection. The disabled would be the last thing they thought about.

*standing ovation*

Radar advocates an end to all government services because he resents paying taxes. This is the real world, not some utopia. If the libertarians would put down their copies of Ayn Rand long enough to look out their windows, they might realize this. OK now, go ahead and attack me. I may respond or I may not. I’m feeling very tired.

Don't even sweat it. The world he's taking about won't even begin to happen in our lifetimes anyway. We're all living on borrowed time...who has time to wait for change? (at least, for THAT kind of change??)

Chronic illness has opened my eyes to a lot of things, and most of them are not so pretty.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by marichiko
PS I just now looked at my post above and see any number of grammatical and spelling errors. My brain is still not hitting on all 6 cylinders, OK? No need for anyone to point this out to me. I may make spelling mistakes but this doesn't detract from either the reality or validity of what I describe.

If your own grammatical errors bother you then the edit button is your friend, if not then let them be. It's only really a problem if they can't be deciphered.

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter


If your own grammatical errors bother you then the edit button is your friend, if not then let them be. It's only really a problem if they can't be deciphered.

Yep, and I didn't even notice any, because the message came through louder than and errors.

[Radar]

That's nice. You go tell the fairies how Federal Reserve is illegal and if everyone stops printing money the world will exist in perfect economic peace and I'll go back to working in the real world with real money on real markets and all the complexities involved in doing so.

You wish it was a fairy tale. The U.S. Constitution, Article 1 Section 8 gives ONLY the U.S. Government the legal authority to make money and in Section 10, clause 1 the Constitution even goes further to prevent the states or anyone else from making money.

And I'll go on agreeing with those Nobel Prize winning economists who agree with what I'm saying and who would laugh at you.

Article 1 Section Clause 5: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Clause 6: To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

Section 10 - Clause 1: No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

One final question, mostly out of morbid curiosity, do you actually think there is no different between macro and micro economics?

Fundamentally, all economics are the same.

Radar himself states this:
“Government keeps 85 cents of every dollar collected for overhead as opposed to 12-15 cents of every dollar for non-profits” Whatever the government does with this money, almost none of it is going to the needy disabled and charities are NOT taking up the slack.

The government taking so much there isn't enough left over to "take up the slack". With government gone and not taking the vast majority of money for charity, there wouldn't be any slack. And even when Americans are forced to work two jobs...one to pay the taxes...and the other to pay the bills, they still give generously to charities in America and abroad.

Radar is espousing Libertarian beliefs with all the sunny innocence of a child. I’m sorry, but I don’t believe for a moment that Americans would take up the slack by an onslaught of charitable giving if their tax burden was taken away

I am not espousing beliefs, I'm espousing facts. You are free to be a pessimist all you like. But nobody's needs regardless of how badly off they are, entitle them to rob others and no amount of rationalization will turn income taxes into anything but theft and slavery. Do you think because you are handicapped, you are entitled to rob others?

For another, under libertarian anarchy people would remain largely uneducated about these and other issues. There would be no public libraries or school systems.

That's laughable. First off with very few exceptions, libertarians are not anarchists. They advocate a small government that does only what it is allowed to do in the Constitution and nothing else. Smaller government = more freedom. Second, we'd have superior school systems that even poor families could attend, and privately owned libraries that were available to the public or public libraries that are funded locally instead of federally.

The wealthy would give their children a good education. Everyone else would home school their children or forget about the whole thing entirely. On top of that, people would be too busy arming themselves to the teeth without police or fire protection. The disabled would be the last thing they thought about.

Put down the crack pipe before you burn your lip. You start off by saying the wealthy would have a good education and the poor would be home schooled. Home-schooled kids perform better than those educated in private and in public schools. Watch the national spelling bee, geography bee, etc. so even if your false world were true, those who were home schooled would have a good education. But the truth is we'd have more schools with better teachers that even the poorest family could attend because they would be cheaper, and because companies would choose to use their tax money to send kids to school instead of sending it to the government. All kids of all income levels would have access to a far better education than the failed and worthless system currently in place, but kids wouldn't be COMPELLED to go by force. Libertarians certainly support anyone's right to home school their children without government oversight.

And the most ludicrous statement you've made is the one painting a post apocalyptic frenzy of people running through stores grabbing guns to defend themselves against the onslaught of marauding bandits. What a crock of shit. Apparently you think before the invention of income taxes we didn't have roads, libraries, a post office, police, or firefighters and the streets were full of people who would shoot you just as soon as look at you. But in reality (something you don't seem to know much about) crime was far lower before income taxes, education was better, and people had more freedom. For the record, I have no problem with people buying as many guns of any type they choose with any kind of ammo.

Your attempts to paint a libertarian America as a lawless America won't fly here chief so try selling that shit to someone else.

Radar advocates an end to all government services because he resents paying taxes.

No, I advocate an end to all unconstitutional government programs because they are illegal, and they are funded with stolen money. It's theft. You seem to think there is something wrong with someone resenting a person who is robbing them at the point of a gun. Your values are completely out of whack. You think the thief should be respected instead of resented, and there is something wrong with the person who dislikes being robbed or seeing others be robbed.

Your type are hilarious. You attempt to rationalize your desire to rob others. You think that if someone is against the government educating people poorly with stolen money, they are against people getting an education. You think if someone is against the government helping out the needy, they are against charity. I suppose you think if someone is against the government using stolen money to feed people, they are against eating.

This is the real world, not some utopia.

That's funny coming from you. Libertarians are the only people who don't believe in utopia. Libertarians are the only one offering real solutions that work in the real world right now. Not some fantasy where people are happy to be robbed and the government is actually helping people.

OK now, go ahead and attack me. I may respond or I may not. I’m feeling very tired.

I haven't attacked you, I've responded to your offensive diatribe promoting theft and attacked your warped value system….ok, I attacked you a little bit, but you deserved it. But it's ok, go ahead and continue your martyr bit. You're so good at it.

So let's say, instead, the charities won't give you money directly, but they'll pay your landlord directly. What's to stop the landlord from collecting multiple times and giving kickbacks to the person living there?

What's to stop someone from taking a chainsaw to every baby they see on the street? A conscience. But some might be unscroupulous. Do you think there aren't people who get away with that kind of stuff right now using the current system?

So where does that leave Elspode's son? He would have to rely on someone providing him with all his goods-and-services directly, since in theory there's no advantage to having them duplicated. Ok, so effectively, he'd have to live in a "home" where everything would be taken care of for him.

As far as I am concerned, charities are there to help people help themselves. I would imagine she would have to provide some things for her son. And what makes you think businesses and people with lots of money since they aren't being robbed anymore won't give to a charity that does medical research, and builds large homes where parents can live with their kids like the Ronald McDonald house charities?

A lot of folks would consider it degrading, both being lumped in with people with all sorts of disabilities, as well as giving up so much independence when they really only need a little help.

A person would be free to approach as many charities as they like if they think they could get more assistance in living the lifestyle they wanted, but help wouldn't and shouldn't be guaranteed because nothing entitles you to charity.

Don't even sweat it. The world he's taking about won't even begin to happen in our lifetimes anyway.

The America I'm talking about was a reality for more than 100 years and it will be again.

[jaguar]

Fundamentally, all economics are the same.

Well fundamentally, all languages are the same too, they consist of blocks that carry meaning. This does not however mean I can speak Russian because I speak English. You largely sidestepped my question.

[wolf]

Originally posted by Radar
those who genuinely care about them rather than glorified DMV workers.

There are some not-so-great people in social services, ones who have been in it too long, who are burned out, and who do just plain suck.

However, that is not true of the majority.

Actually, the ones who burn out (especially early) are the ones who DO care about their clients and truly bust their asses on their clients behalf.

I can assure you, radar, that I know a lot more case managers and direct care staff than you do ... from my own and other agencies.

Your "assessment" is without merit.

People who truly don't care can't do this kind of work.

[Radar]

Well fundamentally, all languages are the same too, they consist of blocks that carry meaning. This does not however mean I can speak Russian because I speak English. You largely sidestepped my question.

Actually I didn't sidestep the question, I've said that all economics are the same. It's funny that you should use the different language analogy though because that's all the difference between macro and micro economics....the language associated with it. Economics are the same whether you're handling your family budget or the budget for an huge international conglomerate.

I can assure you, radar, that I know a lot more case managers and direct care staff than you do ... from my own and other agencies.

I have had to wait in government lines and know of what I speak. I couldn't believe the rudeness and gall of some of the bureaucrats who are my civil servants.

But it's just great that the people who are case workers in your area are so caring. Perhaps they'd do the same job well in the private charity arena with money given in good will rather than that stolen from people.

"But in reality (something you don't seem to know much about) crime was far lower before income taxes, education was better, and people had more freedom."

Class, please give a brief one page analysis of the population size and composition in the United States in the 19th versus 21st centuries. Extra credit: Discuss civil liberties in the two times.

You know, one reason why Ayn Rand could write as she did was because she was a Russian with little grounding in the American experience or American history. Presumably you don’t have the same excuse, Mr. Reality, I mean Radar. Yeah, the US and every other country in the world could get away with all sorts of things in the 19th century, including the abuse of personal liberties of which slavery is only the most obvious example. And if I go along with your theory that life was so much better in 19th century America before income taxes with no other economic or sociological factors taken into account, then I get to say stuff like “Well, you see, when they didn’t have income taxes, they had slaves. QED!” It makes as much of a logical argument as you do.

I want to see your statistics on literacy rates in the 1850’s versus the 1950’s. I want to see your analyses of the crime rate and personal safety, especially that of black Americans. I want you to give concrete examples of how people like child factory workers and slaves had more personal freedoms. If you are going to make such a statement, I want you to back it up with solid evidence, not rhetoric. When you have proved to me what a great place 19th century America was, I want you to prove that this was directly the result of no income taxes. I want hard facts and the use of logic in your conclusions.

You bet I cherish my right to keep and bear arms. I’ll need weapons in the case of any potential libertarian take-over. As a matter of fact, let the Libertarians and all those who espouse similar beliefs set up their own state or their own area of anarchy – however they would define it. Since we all live in the REAL world, I’m sure the good people of say, New Jersey or New Mexico would happily cede a portion of their state to the Libertarians since everyone is so disposed to be in a frenzy of charitable giving. And since the Libertarians are opposed to government handouts, we’ll even let them pay fair market value for their little bit of New Jersey. The sole stipulation will be that they leave for their new territory and never come back. I for one am sick and tired of having to engage with the libertarian voice in matters of national dialog. Bottom line, you don’t WANT a nation, so why don’t you retire from the scene and leave the rest of us in peace?

Go live in your “Libertaria” with no public schools or libraries or system of highways. No public health facilities or police protection or national mail distribution. These things should be no problem in the REAL world, right? There will be no tariffs, so anything and everything will flow freely both ways across their borders. Except people out – you’ve all signed an agreement, remember?

After five years of this experiment with everyone building their own roads and hiring their own thugs to protect them, sending their children to school while the children of the working class be damned (just how many of the working class will sign on for “Libertaria,” anyhow? The American worker is not as dumb as he may look), just how strong a border patrol will the US have to have to keep you crack pots from coming back in to the system you so despise? The current problem on our border with Mexico would pale by comparison. But its OK, Radar, I promise you that in such an event we’ll show you all the sympathy and compassion you have shown for the poor and disabled of your former country. Don’t let the door hit you in the ass when you go. After all, “America – love it or leave it!” Right?

“I suppose you think if someone is against the government using stolen money to feed people, they are against eating.”

Frankly, if that’s the only way people can be fed, then so be it. There’s a reason why Robin Hood became a cultural icon. By the way, they didn’t have income taxes back in Robin’s time, so why wasn’t he a bit merrier about the whole thing?

[xoxoxoBruce]

I couldn't believe the rudeness and gall of some of the bureaucrats who are my civil servants.

I'd love to hear what they say about you.

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
I'd love to hear what they say about you.

DITTO!

[zippyt]

Damn I started a shit storm !!!!!
Some body get Radar a cork for his mouth so it will quit raining shit !!!!