8/12: Palestinian getting kicked (thx sapienza)

[Undertoad]

Young Israelis mount an immature attack on a Palestinian.

[plool]

Maybe its just me, but whenever I'm around officials with guns--I tend to be on my best behavior.

These people are just kicking and pulling at someone? An old lady no less?

Incredible.

[mbpark]

What I find extremely sick about this all, being Jewish, is that Jews and the Palestinian/Arabic/Muslim community peacefully co-existed for thousands of years, especially in Moorish Spain, North Africa, and throughout the rest of the world there.

This is propaganda spread on both sides, especially by extremists from the Jewish community, whom I denounce. Please don't view these people as being Jewish in any sense of the word. They may look and act like Jews, and even go to services as well, however they are not Jews. We're not taught to outright abuse people like that. This behavior reminds me more of the Hitler Youth than of Jews.

I'm not absolving the Muslim community with a broad brushstroke either. Right now, however, I view the Palestinian community as mere pawns in a game dominated by Hafez Assad, Saddam Hussein, Hashemi Rafsenjani, and the Arab League, because of the fact that the Arab leaders care more about their political ambitions than the Koran.

Well, there is that issue of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount as well . Those flames have been there for 2,000 years!

Most wars are fought over access to warm-water ports. If you look at most of the Arab world, it's landlocked. The state of Israel straddles a major strategic route between the Red Sea and the Mediterranean that reduces shipping costs. Whoever controls that strip of land can control a major portion of commerce into the Arab world because of the port control and access to potential key distribution routes for Iraq, Syria, and several other countries from the Mediterranean. Israel isn't also a complete wreck of a country like Lebanon has been since the 70's.

Why do you think the Soviets invaded Afghanistan? It was to get access to Pakistan eventually, and from there have a quicker warm-water route for their ships. If they would have made it to Pakistan, there would have been serious issues with China, but that's a world war waiting to happen in itself .

While there is religion involved, there is also the complete issue of economics as well. Israel, unlike most of the other countries in that area, has a very well-developed infrastructure that the Arab world covets, as well as several well-developed port cities.

IMHO, the war over the temple ruins is a mask for the real intentions of the Arab world, which are to eventually take over Israel and absorb the most sophisticated infrastructure in the region outside Saudi Arabia and Kuwait into the extremist Arab bloc, which is over 20 years behind the times (especially Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Jordan) due to the fact that the Western world doesn't like them, and doesn't sink infrastructure money too much into rogue states such as Iraq or Syria.

Israel represents the ability to get it quickly. However, I don't count out that army, EVER.

[jaguar]

plool the reason they are is coz the soldiers are there - they don't care they spend every day getting stoned by her sons - no sympathy there.

The problem is now as the fighting escalates there is more sympathy in the Palestinian side for extreme groups that use the Palestinian cause as an excuse like hamas and Islamic jihad that want to blow Israel out of existence many for the reasons mbpark has listed. That’s not goanna happen - pure military power is pointless, the Israeli is one of the best armed and powerful in the world and are some of the best trained in fighting terrorism. The danger is of this being a war of attrition - continued terrorist attacks inside Israel - similar to the 1980s bomb nightmare in Britain by the IRA, countered by strong military retaliation in Palestinian controlled areas. Hopefully something will change before Arafat is deposed as such and chaos breaks out totally. I used to know a chick in Isreal who had really interesting views on this stuff but I haven’t had a chance to talk to her for ages, she’s the sister of my ex and we’re not really talking yet…

mbpark, you have a unique perspective amongst us here I think - do you think there should be a Palestinian state in the west bank and Gaza? More interestingly do you support the Israeli colonies that they continue to build there?

[alphageek31337]

Is it me, or does something always get screwed up when the UN decides it's going to make a state for a specific group of people. You've got Israel there, the Bosni-Herzegovina thing (I'm not sure about UN involvement there, but if my memory is any good, they had some sort of country-splitting involvement), and I'm sure a few others where something similar has happened. What makes you think, for one second, that it will be different if a Palestinian state on the West Bank happens. This has become a war of principle, the worst kind of war, because each side believes itself to be doing the work of some God or another. Not unlike the Catholic/Protestant fighting in Ireland, I don't think that half of these people realize what they're fighting for at all. They simply throw themselves into battle because they hate the other side because it has always been that way, and, unfortunately, it will be that way for at least one generation, probably 3 or 4, based on what i've seen earlier about the "training" (pronounced brAn-wa-shing) of children by both sides.

[Gopher]

They might be related to one or more of the fifteen people killed in Thursday's suicide bomber attack, at 2:00pm in a Jerusalem location of the Sbarro's pizza chain. We have Sbarro's here in San Francisco too. The location was selected, presumably because it would in all likelihood attract a younger clientele, as well as tourists. Six of those killed were children. One hundred and thirty people were injured. One American remains in critical condition.

I heard a report on NPR some time ago that I found distressing: The Muslims have suicide bomber camps, where parents send their children to learn to be productive members of the Jihad. The reporter talked to one child who was drawing pictures in crayon of the suicide bomber he would like to grow up to be- at the moment of explosion. He seemed completely unafraid about dying in the service of Allah.

It's difficult to take any kind of strong moral stance in war, except that war, as a whole, is bad.

[Xugumad]

Originally posted by alphageek31337
Is it me, or does something always get screwed up when the UN decides it's going to make a state for a specific group of people. You've got Israel there... [EL SNEEP]

Britain took it upon herself to create a Jewish state, and support the Zionist movement. In typical colonialist fashion, an amount of land that was mostly occupied by the British prior to the formation of a Jewish state was declared the Jewish homeland, and immigration was encouraged.

Of course, the fact that much of that land was already inhabited by some unwashed towel-headed barbarians was overlooked. They smell of camel dung and have no proper government, so who cares?

Naturally, Israel declared itself a state, and was instantly attacked by its neighbours; as it had plentiful foreign support, it survived the onslaught. Over the course of the next 30 years, it snagged and occupied a variety of regions surrounding it, line the Golan heights, the West bank, etc., extending its landmass many times over. None of that land was 'given' to Israel by the UN. They simply took it in conquest, although Israel was always the country being attacked. Presumably this is thought of as just retribution.

The people living in those occupied areas that Israel refuses to relinquish, and who are often being treated as nearly slave-like subjects (they may not travel whenver Israel feels like it, often can't go to work, have very high taxes imposed on them, have their houses demolished so Israeli settlers can build their own etc) probably don't feel it's very just, but then they are just stupid Arabs without a proper government, lobby, or US-sponsored nuclear weapons.

Israel has been on the receiving side of a lot of crap in the last fifty years, and that has led to a very firm stance on how to deal with its enemies. Unfortunately, everybody has become an enemy. The state of Israel is an artificial creation - NOT by the UN, but rather by British sponsorship. The UN wouldn't dream of suddenly sending in a couple of million people into an area already populated, and tell them to declare independence there. Don't blame the UN.

Apologies for the polemics. I have a lot of sympathy for both the Jewish and the Palestinian plight; unfortunately, that issue is about as clear-cut as Northern Ireland.

Xugumad

[Hubris Boy]

Originally posted by Xugumad
The state of Israel is an artificial creation - NOT by the UN, but rather by British sponsorship.

You make some excellent points, Xug, but I think you're being a little hard on the British. Granted, they started the ball rolling with the Balfour Declaration in 1917:

• "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people - it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

but it was meant as a statement of principle, not a concrete proposal.

When the League of Nations saddled Britain with the Palestine Mandate in 1922, it was a necessary expedient due to the breakup of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of WWI. Somebody had to run the place, after all. I don't think the British had any intention of allowing the establishment of a Jewish (let alone Zionist) state in the area, and certainly not at the expense of the Muslims (and sprinkling of Christians) who were already there . Heck... they spent years fighting Jewish terrorists who were trying to do that very thing. Remember the King David Hotel bombing?

Viewed with 20/20 hindsight, it's easy to see that the British made a lot of mistakes while they were in charge. But I think they're just the latest in a series of occupying powers- stretching back to the Romans- who are sorry they ever heard of the damned place, and were glad to be rid of it. Victims of circumstance, if you will.

My $.02

[jaguar]

*correct me if I�fm wrong*
Apart from the standard issue Islamic Fundamentalists/extremists I thought it was control over Gaza and the west bank which Israel invaded in 1969 (or was it 67, my recent middle eastern history is pretty average) and has being to colonise ever since, not the existence of the state of Israel itself.

Gopher - religion always creates the messiest wars. Crusades, various extreme Muslim causes etc. It is also used as an excuse to kill allot of people - those "freedom fighters" in the Philippines come to mind.....Its a pity that Islam gets such a bad image - there is little in the koran to my knowledge that for instance supports total demolition of basic rights for women.

alphageek - the saying that comes to mind is "a good comramise leaves everyone infuriated" whcih is entirely true - jsut causes alot more problems with countries.

Originally posted by jaguar
*correct me if I�fm wrong*
Apart from the standard issue Islamic Fundamentalists/extremists I thought it was control over Gaza and the west bank which Israel invaded in 1969 (or was it 67, my recent middle eastern history is pretty average) and has being to colonise ever since, not the existence of the state of Israel itself.

it was 1967, during the six day war. israel was attacked, but managed to win on all fronts. they took the sinai peninsula, golan heights, the gaza strip and the west bank. they gave the sinai peninsula back to egypt a while later. you can find more info at http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/67_War.html

[kaleidoscopic ziggurat]

frankly i think its just too damn bad for the palestinians. emigrate to other arab lands.

if i'm not mistaken, there was no such thing as a "palestinian" 100 years ago. they don't have a specific culture unique to them that sets them apart from other arabs. they're just arabs that happened to be in the area of the world that britain named palestine. might be wrong here though, but that's what i've heard.

i mean, arafat is an egyptian. anything wrong with this picture?

everyone got hostile and tried to attack the israelis. lives were lost, but land was gained... in that fact, it is remarkable. they overcame. spoils go to the victor, and the losers are just being cry-babies.

war is always bad... but the kind of terrorism the palestinian extremists are engaging in is LOW LOW LOW... specifically picking targets to maximize the amount of children dead? SHAME. but everyone is guilty in this affair unfortunatly... victims of circumstance perhaps but the cycle is not being broken. what can be done except sit back & watch?

gulf war II, coming to a theatre near yoooou.

[dynamo]

Originally posted by kaleidoscopic ziggurat
war is always bad... but the kind of terrorism the palestinian extremists are engaging in is LOW LOW LOW... specifically picking targets to maximize the amount of children dead? SHAME.

That's why they call it terrorism...

I don't fault the palestinians at all for changing the rules of engagement to suit themselves. "All's fair in love and war" right? People have been breaking the rules in war for years and years. Targeting officers, guerrila warfare, salting fields. It's a dirty game, but what would you do if you couldn't compete any other way? Would you roll over? If the option was lose everything (and I think the palestinians believe that), I'd have to say the ends justify the means.

Clearly they believe quite strongly in what they are doing. You don't blow yourself up in the name of your god if you're not 100% confident you're going to some kind of afterlife. Divine justice and all that. They know they are right, but they feel frustrated and helpless...so they react any way they can.

And having said all that, I pretty much support israel 100%. the past is the past, I can't change that, but two wrong's don't make a right. They have to live together, they can do it in peace or at war, but palestine isn't going to see all of its demands met. it can't happen. One more thing, I've been all though israel, and be glad you don't have to live like that. I could tell stories for hours, but I'll just tell one. One evening I was walking down the beach in tel aviv. There is hotel after hotel down the coast, but some parts of the beach are packed while other parts are completely deserted. While I walked past a deserted portion, my israeli friend pointed out a sign in the water and said "do you know what that says?" I had no idea, he said "No swimming, mines" woah. Israeli army men with submachine guns at the mall or the bus stop, traffic stopped for 2 hours while they blow up a suspicious package, military check points...

[elSicomoro]

Today's word is "compromise." As in, "Israel and the Palestinians will need to compromise, for neither will get all that they desire."

Palestinians will never get their country without toning down the rhetoric. Israel will have to learn to live with Palestinians and Arabs in their midst. Given that both seem to fight in the name of religion, they don't seem to act very religious.

[serge]

I say that sooner or later there must be a civil war in Israel and other occupied territories. I hear you say.. a Jew on a Jew? Never!.. well sure the religious fascists and their sympathizers in Israel only abuse and murder Palestinians right now.. but when (now) they push their religious agenda on their (predominantly "Jewish") citizens.. who too will feel the burn....... *

You can only reason with these people up to a certain, limited point..

*(plus they feel the burn right now, what's with their relatives being blown up on weekly basis.. smart tactic.. kill non-religious nuts.. make them (as a group) think about the situation and what's more important for them.. mystical scraps of land they don't particularly care about or lives of their family members.)

Agh.. I got to get some sleep.. I might edit to clarify the post later.

[Xugumad]

Originally posted by kaleidoscopic ziggurat
frankly i think its just too damn bad for the palestinians. emigrate to other arab lands.

if i'm not mistaken, there was no such thing as a "palestinian" 100 years ago. they don't have a specific culture unique to them that sets them apart from other arabs. they're just arabs that happened to be in the area of the world that britain named palestine. might be wrong here though, but that's what i've heard.

That's the whole point. There was no palestinian state, just a lot of often nomadic settlers and arabs occupying that land. As they had no government but instead preferred their way of life, somebody simply took their land away and gave it to somebody else. Those other people then started arriving and pushed out the 'natives', often using extremely violent measures.

Palestinians are being wiped out the same way Native Americans were killed. Without global media coverage and the necessity of Israel to keep the US happy so they can get more tanks, planes, and nuclear weapons, they'd have wiped out all of the Palestinians long ago. Instead, they lead a stealth war on them - see also the slave-like treatment comment I made earlier.

i mean, arafat is an egyptian. anything wrong with this picture?

What nationality were Washington, Jefferson, Adams? Oh, that's right. They had no country - they took it upon themselves to free their land from the oppression of someone who had no right to tell them what to do.

everyone got hostile and tried to attack the israelis. lives were lost, but land was gained... in that fact, it is remarkable. they overcame. spoils go to the victor, and the losers are just being cry-babies.

What a remarkably enlightened approach. National boundaries mean nothing, you can just grab whatever you need, all because the Britain/US axis decided to simply 'start' a state in the middle of a place where they had no business meddling with, and then provided those people with weapons and money.

You don't seem to understand: The Israelis had no business being there. None. Whatsoever. If somebody started a 'state' in my backyard, all of my neighbours and yours truly would be out there RIGHT NOW to kick him out. And no, it doesn't matter that Mr. Jackson down the street told him that my yard was a great place to put up a tent and gave him a weapon. Which he then used to shoot me with. DUH. And the fact that he shot me when I tried to kick him out WOULD STILL BE WRONG.

war is always bad... but the kind of terrorism the palestinian extremists are engaging in is LOW LOW LOW... specifically picking targets to maximize the amount of children dead? SHAME.

Welcome to Generalizations 101, students. Please pick a seat.
Come on. You should know that the violent extremists only make a relatively small portion of the Palestinian populace. The vast majority are people who would just like to live their lives without being 'detained' randomly, without being banned from traveling, without having all of their products and exports taxed highly to prevent them from making a living, without being spied upon and assassinated by the Mossad for daring to speak out against Israel, and without being kicked by children and teenagers in the middle of the street because you are about 70, female, and an Arab. LOW LOW LOW?

Yes, terrorism is LOW LOW LOW, but most Palestinians DO NOT ENGAGE IN IT. The worst 99% of Palestinians do is throw stones at well-armoured Israeli soldiers. Those soldiers then shoot and kill the kids who throw the stones. LOW LOW LOW? Ah, double standards.

but everyone is guilty in this affair unfortunatly... victims of circumstance perhaps but the cycle is not being broken. what can be done except sit back & watch?

Right. Sit back and watch the slaughter, whilst Russia etc. continue providing the Palestinians with weapons, and while the US happily continues shipping tanks, planes, and other amusing tools to Israel. Why exactly does the US do that with Israel, and nobody else? Why does more than half of US foreign aid go to Israel? Why does the US artificially keep the state of Israel alive?

Sure, sit back and watch. And whoever loses is a cry-baby. Jesus, do you even KNOW what you're talking about?

gulf war II, coming to a theatre near yoooou.

How melodramatic. I am sure the thousands of US soldiers suffering from Gulf War syndrome, and their occasionally deformed and crippled babies would feel differently. How many people had to die and suffer what were ultimately US oil and Israeli security interests?

If this misinformation and 'oh well shit happens' attitude continues, God help us all.