Suicide: Read This First

[DanaC]

Sorry, I realise it looks like I'm answering Tora, when I was responding to Anon.

[morethanpretty]

Ah yes I see. I find anon's posts very judgmental, although I do feel for those that have been affected by suicide one way or another.

[Ocean's Edge]

My first suicide attempt - I was 8
My last suicide attempt - I was 18

That was 30 years ago

I don't mean that as any kind of a set up to being any kind of an expert on the subject - hell I'm not even an expert on my own relationship to the subject, only that I've spent a LOT of time thinking about it.

There's a lot I'd like to say contribute, muse about, but it's all a bit stream of consciousness.

One of the more difficult things for me has always been trying to separate the realities of my life, from the chemical processes in my brain.

There's been no shortage of shitage in my life to be depressed about. Growing up in a highly dysfunctional family complete with violence and parents who at the very least didn't notice me, relate to me, and sometimes actively disliked me - fast forward to a highly dysfunctional marriage - 3 disabled children, one of whom was extremely high needs, a series of failed relationships, a destroyed career leading to broke and a little hopeless at 48.

That's the reality of my life - no shortage of stress, no shortage of things to worry and fuss and bother and .... just plain tire me out. But that isn't depression - depression is the difference in my brain that says today "I can deal with this, I can do this, 'the sun come out tomorrow', he loves me, together we will make this work, there's always a way to make things better, and who cares if we have no money - we have each other" but then tomorrow the rats get loose and "gah V, this is all your blessed fault, you've screwed everything up you've ever tried for 48 yrs and now you're gonna drag him down there too, it's no bloody wonder he's falling out of love with you, and it's just so much and I am just so tired and hurt and there is so much work to do and I can't do this all by myself and I'm too f**king old to start all over again AGAIN, and at least maybe the $250,000 life insurance policy would make a dent in fixing the shit you've managed to make a mess of"

In the middle of all that - I'm trying to sort out the shit in my life, from the shit in my brain. IM - I get a feeling you kinda know what I'm talking about there.

THIS: oh so much THIS!

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

But what I feel and what I do are, currently, two separate things. I'm going to keep them separate until such a time that what I do and what I feel are both tending towards positive behaviors.

I won't say I still think about suicide every day, but the feelings of self blame, hurt, loneliness and just plain tired..... are never really far away. But oddly enough it's all the THINGS that need doing that keep me going. "I'm so tired of dealing with all this shit I'd just like to lay down and die and rest, but then who would deal with this shit?" I'm actually been a bit better since he went to Australia - I gotta get up and feed the dogs and clean the cats' litter boxes and someone has to do the dishes.....

I'm so tired of being tired,
But sure as night has followed day
Most things that I worry about
Never happen anyway

Tired, this whole idea that I'm supposed to seek out help and therapy and ... it's just one more thing to do when just dragging my arse out of bed in the morning is a challenge. I actually did try to find help - there was counseling and therapy for a while when my first marriage broke down - that was good for me, BUT it's also hard when 'family counseling' was my mother's way of not having to deal with our issues. I signed up once for a drug trial, but was turned down on the basis that my depression is more bi-polar in nature.

Thing is, aside from Him, and a couple of very close friends, I've never said those things aloud. Considering I hardly know any of you from Adam - I've only been here a few weeks - it surprises me that I say it now. Accept that there is some protection in the anonymity of the internet - which is really great for talking for people who for whatever reasons are feeling marginalized. And well I really not quite sure why - accept that this place does feel 'safe'.

Originally Posted by DanaC

I don't think blanket statements of selfishness or cowardice are particularly useful. Everyone is different. Every experience of the world is different. Even if you have experienced what it is like to be suicidal, you only know what it is like to be suicidal in your own head.

I gotta concur - ya know the last thing I really need right now is more guilt. More blame. There is a lot of shame in saying "yeah I've regularly tried to take my own life" that just adds to the fear/struggle/work/difficulty of looking for help and this idea of 'lazy, cowardice, easy way out' feeds into that. Shaming people - never a good thing, whether it's fat shaming, or feminine shaming, or suicide shaming - it feels a bit like bullying ... and I don't really think it helps anyone. I know it sure as hell doesn't help me any. It's not saying that sometimes there isn't an element of selfishness to it - "I'll show them! Maybe then they'll finally understand how much I needed them, and how badly they let me down, and they'll feel as BAD as I do right now" ... but I don't think shaming people for it is the answer to that.

Him has suggested gently at times I might want to seek some help - and I have thought about it (see above). But I've been dealing with this in my life a long time - and for the most part ... I've learned to manage my moods, my mood swings, to cope and in some ways even thrive. I'm not entirely sure I could write without the melancoly. And if I'm being truly honest I'm not quite worked through the whole stigma thing (not other people's - my own) about 'happy pills' - which at times seems really STUPID - I can give other people excellent advice about "if your brain is sick and a medication makes it better - then you really should at least consider taking it. If your lungs were sick with the lurgy and antibiotics would make it better you wouldn't feel 'weak' for taking that would you?" I'm dreadful at times at taking my own good advice. But the real truth is - I'm tired. When I need the help it's just so much damn work - not just find a therapist, hell I haven't even had a decent family doctor in 20+ years - scratch that ... in forever. And when I don't need the help, it seems silly and pointless. It's kind of like - there was a post a couple weeks ago .... 15 Reasons You May Be Feeling Bad - and in that thread a link to 22 Tips to Keep Your Shit Together When You're Depressed - lots of good advice there. I printed them out and put them someplace handy but out of sight - when I'm 'OK' they seem silly and trite and platitudes, when I'm feeling 'Fragile' I need to remember them.

Anyway..... I've rambled and babbled and carried on about this enough, probably more than enough, or more than you wanted to know...

[DanaC]

Shaming people - never a good thing, whether it's fat shaming, or feminine shaming, or suicide shaming - it feels a bit like bullying ... and I don't really think it helps anyone.

Yes. Yes, and thrice yes.

The problem with heaping blame or shame onto people who are depressed, or struggling with weight gain, or addiction, or any of those things, is that actually, they're usually already well and truly overloaded in the shame department.

I just don't see that morality has a part in this. It's one of the things that winds me the fuck up about a lot of approaches to alcohol and drug addiction. It feeds straight into a self-destructive mentality and can make it so much harder to break away from damaging thought processes. Internalising a sense of yourself as 'bad' or 'immoral' or 'weak' because of the way your brain is wired up, is as senseless as feeling shame because you have spots on your face.

[Ocean's Edge]

Agreed - I know "Interventions" are a tried and true technique for dealing with alcoholics and addicts - and thus there must be some value in it - but it feels a lot like the shaming thing - and it makes me very uncomfortable.

It makes me even more uncomfortable that now we're gonna splash that whole process - that is so raw and difficult for everyone involved all over millions of TV screens in the name of 'reality television' - gripping dramatic viewing - lets watch someone else's life be an even bigger wreck than our own so we can feel smug and safe in our own dysfunction....

/rant

Sorry - got carried away there. But I really really really HATE that sort of TV. I remember when A&E was about Arts and Entertainment .... ballet on Sunday mornings, and TLC was The Learning Channel and ran James Burke's Connections.... now it's all about watching the train wrecks...

[Ocean's Edge]

[infinite monkey]

Oh, I don't know. I get bothered by the 'don't say this and don't do that...do this instead' things.

It's no wonder people are afraid to reach out and say anything. You hear people complaining about how people kept saying 'blah blah blah' when a loved one passed away but they said SOMETHING and that was probably hard as hell. I know how I feel: gosh, should I say this or should I say that? and it ends up best to just ignore the whole freaking situation anyway. Which is no good for anyone. And then you'll hear: they didn't call, they didn't come by? Why? Don't they CARE? No, they were so damn afraid to say the wrong thing.

So I say: say something, say the wrong thing if that's what comes out of your mouth. Give a chance to respond. Be willing to listen. Be strong enough to know that what you said might be met with chagrin or a sigh. But you said something.

I remember when the big thing was, when someone (a 'lesser being' like a cashier or something) would say "have a nice day" and someone would bark at them: DON'T TELL ME WHAT KIND OF DAY TO HAVE.

Well, fuck you very much then. I loved that when I was working hard being a nice little high school girl cashier in the farm market.

I might make me one of those sales buttons: I suffer from severe chronic depression! Ask me how!

I may not be able to tell you, but at least you wondered. That makes me feel less like a pissant running along the sidewalk, anyway. [/slightly related rant]

Just sayin'.

[Ocean's Edge]

point well taken...

my own personal bug bear is people who say "Hi, How are you?" as a greeting, but ya know.... they really don't want to know ... if you want to know how I am - ask me I *will* tell you, but if you really couldn't give a shit - just say 'Hi' and bloody well leave it at that

things that poke our itchy spots ... we alls got em

[infinite monkey]

I know, but it's just a habit of social convention.

I don't care that they don't really care. It's just what you say to the cow orkers to pretend like the sight of them doesn't make your skin crawl.

Of course, social convention is why I want to live in the middle of nowhere.

I typically only get upset if someone says "Hey bitch, you piss me off and I'm going to beat your face in." Now THAT's something I can respond to!

[Ocean's Edge]

Yep

Social convention is why I do live in the middle of nowhere

of course that makes earning a living a real bitch

[DanaC]

Social convention is the grease on the wheels of unavoidable social interaction. It makes life easier when you have a handful of easily recognised and reciprocated cues.

For instance: Around here, a standard way of saying hello is 'Hiya, are you alright?' (though that is shortened to something more like 'Hyalrite'). On no account is this to be taken as an invitation to discuss how you in fact are. Some acceptable responses: Good, aye. you? / I'm alright, you? Fair to middlin', how you doin? This done as you pass by someone you know

Sometimes it doesn't need a response. If i say hello to someone and they respond with 'hyalrite' they're not expecting me to say anything else.

It's nice though. It's just a bit of casual friendliness in passing. We all know the rules of engagement.




[eta] Re: the Stephen Fry quote. That advice is based on his own experience of bipolar depression (or some variant thereof). He's done some really interesting tv work around it too. Really has done a lot over here towards changing people's perceptions of depression.

[DanaC]

Here's a documentary he did a couple of years ago, called The Secret Life of the Manic Depressive (Let me know if this is blocked btw)

Bear in mind, that some years ago, Fry had a very public breakdown: abandoning a major theatre production 3 nights into its run, going missing for some time; later discovered to have been suicidal, though he wasn't able to go through with it. He talks about that experience in the opening to the film.




One of the people he talks to is Robbie Williams (from Take That). Williams describes the way his depression manifested saying that he stopped going out. He describes it brilliantly though: 'I lost the cog to socialise'. Damn, but that resonates.

[Ocean's Edge]

You are of course right about social conventions ... its just when you feel like you're dying inside and no one bloody cares and you feel marginalized and alone .... simple social conventions can make you want to scream - but truth is yeah, not the world's fault my brain chemistry is wired like a faulty battery

*nod* I knew the quote was taken from that - I have both parts of that documentary on the hard drive - they are interesting, very interesting... I'm inclined to think it does the whole documentary (and Mr Fry) a disservice to pull a singular sound bite quote out of a much larger and thoughtful work.

my bad

[xoxoxoBruce]

People contemplating suicide get it wrong because they see this, which is exactly backward.

[Sundae]

I dunno. I never saw it like that.
Yes I saw the dead and dying and disappointment and ditress I was causing outside the noose.
But inside the noose? I never saw redemption. I just saw nothing. No more pain. All gone, everything gone, even peace. Dead body, no more reason to hurt.

The temptation is still there. Death on my own terms, not on a ward dying slowly of cirrhosis.

But the Quaker Meetings are a help.
I'm still a long way from Faith, but I like their mindset.
Could do with a bit of singing occasionally, though
Make a joyful noise unto the Lord and all that.