2/25 Extra: Israelis, Palestinians, Death

[BruteForce]

Here's a Time article on the deal (exit popup): http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...213016,00.html

[Torrere]

Wow.

[Griff]

This plan has the advantage of simplicity, I'd assume everyone in the region knows the 1967 borders. It would be a simple thing to verify compliance. The cost will be bourne by the extremists. Those who want Israel gone and those who live in settlements outside the old borders are the folks who won't get their way. They resist peaceful resolution so they get left out in the cold. It sounds about as close to a just conclusion as they can get. Imagine the economic power of a mid-east without conflict... If any of you folks pray, put this in your litany.

[Griff]

The resistance begins...

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/27/op...odaysheadlines

What you expect?

<i>Dore Gold was Israel's ambassador to the United Nations from 1997 to 1999 and has served as an adviser to the government of Ariel Sharon.</i>

Sadly, it's probably true.

[russotto]

As the Saudis know, the Golan Heights bit is a deal-killer. Israel is not going to hand the high ground back to enemy Syria.

[Griff]

How many cubic yards of mountain are we talking about? Caterpillar and dynomite....

Good write-up:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/716849.asp

[node]

Does anyone know the death tolls of each side? As far as I'm aware since Israel is better armed thanks to Jewish-Americans they tend to kill a lot more Palestinians for every Israeli killed. They're both as bad as each other, but I'm completely sick of hearing Sharon call Palestinians "terrorists", blatantly trying to capitalise on Bush's "war on terrorism" when Israel is at least as bad as Palestine when it comes to killings and unwillingness to negotiate. Just because Israeli deaths seem to often be from suicide bombers doesn't mean striking back with tanks and rockets is any more legitimate.

[Xugumad]

Originally posted by node
Does anyone know the death tolls of each side? As far as I'm aware since Israel is better armed thanks to Jewish-Americans they tend to kill a lot more Palestinians for every Israeli killed.

There was a website somewhere that kept track of the mideast death toll. I believe for the last twelve months, roughly 4 Palestinians died for every dead Israeli. (May have been on indymedia.org, I will try to find that site again, though, so don't take my word as gospel)

Naturally, this does not include any of the hundreds of Palestinians imprisoned because they might, in some way, be associated with terrorist activities, some of whom will never be seen again. (trial or lawyer not allowed, of course) As you probably know, torture of civilian prisoners is widely practiced and legal in Israel.

The difference between the death tolls is that the Israeli one is inflicted mostly by semi-autonomous underground terrorist organizations, whilst the Palestinian death toll is mostly caused by Israeli armed forces.

Not that you will ever find out anything about the real death toll, though. The media focuses almost exclusively on those barbaric Palestinian attacks. Murderers, the lot of them.

Let's hope that cuddly teddybear Ariel Sharon sorts out that ugly nasty terrorist Arafat! (he has links to those Al-whatever people!)

<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/">Read</a>.
<a href="http://www.indymedia.org/">Weep</a>.

[tw]

Originally posted by dhamsaic
...and if Palestinians would stop blowing up innocent Israeli civilians, maybe Israel would make some of those concessions?

This is where the lies begin. The previous intafada ended with the Oslo Accords, in part, because they were based upon the necessary conditions for peace - UN 242. Do you remember Palestinians putting flowers in the gun barrels of Israeli troops? It was not that long ago but has long since been forgotten - as extremists would have you think. They would have you forget how close peace was.

The current intafada is a direct result only of Israeli right wing extremists actions. First they had to murder the man most responsible for a peace settelement based upon UN 242. Extremist Jews so hate UN 242 that they will not even admit to UN 242. Even moderates such as Adam Zion, in a long thread entitled "Man vs Tank" refused to even repost my references to UN 242. But UN 242 is necessary to all peace - and any references to who drove whom previously from the land is unintelligent mockery of reality. UN 242 defines current and future conditions for all borders. Everyone is there to stay - per UN 242. All pre-1967 historical claims are now irrelevant.

Having assassinated a moderate Israeli, the next step is to incite new violence - to restart the intafada. This occurred in little steps in every Israeli community. For example, to keep Palestinians out of Jerusalem, Israeli local, right wing governments permitted Arab and Palestinian land on the east side of Jerusalem to be confiscated - outright without any compensation. If you don't remember that outright land theft, then you are part of the problem. A circle of West Bank settlements were then built into Jewish occupation cities so that Palestinians would have to pass through or near Israeli settlements to get to their Capitol city.

On Islam sabbath days, right wing Israeli extremists would, for example, march through Islamic residential neighborhoods slamming pots and pans together - protected by local, right wing authorities who would not arrest them for disturbing the peace. After all, extremist Israelis wanted the peace distrubed.

If that was not enough, The Dichead and mass murder marching into Islam holy land in Jersusalem with the obvious intent to desecrate the land and Mosque by his presence. What does the Arab world most remember of Sharon? He is a mass murder of 5,000 mostly Palestinian women and children. That should always be remembered by every decent human being and should be the first thing you always think of when the word Dichead is spoken.

And so we have the intafada of today - different from the one that preceded the Oslo peace process. It only exists because of right wing extremist Israelis currently lead by the Dichead - meaning unashamed mass murder.

Peace in the Middle East must include this one absolutely necessary condition - the elimination of all West Bank and Gaza Isreali settlements. How was peace created between Egypt and Israel in the Sinai? By the exact same requirement. The Israeli Army had to force extremists, anti-humanity, anti-American, anti-Islamic, and anti-Christian right wing extremists out of the Sinai. That same is required for Israeli Palestinian peace. But this time, the extremist, pax-Israeli enemies will not let that happen a second time. They remember the removal of settlements in the Sinai. They remember that humiliation of Zionism that was necessary to create peace. Extremists Zionism and peace cannot co-exist. And so extremists such as the Dichead love this current violence because it even masks the daily stealing of Palestinian land for more Jewish West Bank and Gaza settlements.

Don't fool yourself. Listen to the BBC. Sharon is playing this intafada to the hilt - using it as a call for the assassination of Arafat and using it to even justify another murder of 12 Palestinian policemen last week by the Israeli army. Remember that Arafat even met every condition required by Israel in the murder of a Jewish government leader - and Isreal renigned on the deal. Of course. the Israeli leader is not an honest man. He is a dichead and the most significant reason for all current violence in the area. Sharon is simply using a variation of Hitler's same strategy.

To Israeli extremists, the only acceptable Peace is the removal of all Palestinians to 'their' lands - Jordan, Syria, etc. That is a violation of the principals of UN 242 and the Oslo Accords. But then the foundations of peace and the realities of UN 242 and the Oslo accordings are the enemy of extremist Israelis.

Unfortunately, not enough Israelis are dying in the current unrest. At this point, the only way that Peace can happen is if something like 100 Israelis and 100 Arabs die every day. Unforunately not enough people are dying daily and too few of the deaths are Israeli. When the death totals are higher and equal, only then will extremists be driven from power. The intafada cannot end as long as the Dichead rules Israel because he created and wants the current instability. Instabilty is what all extremists thrive on and promote themselves by using. The intafada is directly traceable and can only be stopped when extremists Isrealis - like all religious zealots - are removed from their government. And yes, tying a religion to the Isreali government only makes that government more easily corrupted.

We know that moderate Isrealis can create peace. So do the right wing Isreali extremists who thought nothing of advocationg the assassination of Rabin - to stop the peace process. Rabin was assassinated as directly called for by right wing extremists Israelis - like Sharon - to end the peace process.

Only Isreali extremists are the reason for the bombings. Those bombings, unfortunately, must increase in intensity and frequencey to restore sanity to the region's people. With sanity might comes things like a trial in The Hague of Ariel Sharon for crimes against humanity. That would most certainly make the peace process restart.

Only other dicheads show respect to mass murders and people who conspire to destroy peace - such as Ariel Sharon. There is the exact reason for the current intafada. First step to stopping Middle East violence is to remove the reason for that violence - Sharon.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by tw
Even moderates such as Adam Zion, in a long thread entitled "Man vs Tank" refused to even repost my references to UN 242.

Happy reading, folks!

We've discussed 242 before tw...and as I said then, it is not overly specific.

First step to stopping Middle East violence is to remove the reason for that violence - Sharon.

And given that the Israelis change their government as often as their underwear (regularly), I don't see Sharon holding on much longer.

[elSicomoro]

I was watching MSNBC...and Dore Gold, the former Israeli ambassador to the UN, just said (if I understood him correctly) that no Israeli government would allow the 1967 borders to stand, nor have a divided Jerusalem. Moron...

Here's a good op-ed piece from today's NY Times.

ajshdfl;ja;lskf qahsgfjasdfla Dore Gold is a fucking cock.

tw - I agree with a lot of what you say, and I really do have sympathy for the Palestinian cause. I am damn tired of reading every day about how 15 more Palestinian police officers have been killed, or some fucking moron blew up a disco in Tel Aviv, killing 21 teenage Israelis. The problem is, the extremists in each side do not want to live with each other. They simply don't. Hamas opposes the Israeli state. We all know that Sharon wants to rid Palestine of the Palestinians. Is there a compromise? Maybe. Maybe not. Each side has to give.

The problem is, Palestinian extremists keep giving Israeli's extremists an excuse to fight. What possible justification could Sharon come up with if there were no suicide bombings? The Palestinian extremists need to understand that there is <b>no way</b> that Israel is going away. It's just not going to happen. Israel is there to stay. So now, the objective becomes: let's make peace. If Sharon wants 7 days of quiet, <b>give it to him!</b> He <b>can't</b> justify an assault if you don't provoke him. But what do Hamas and Islamic Jihad do? Blow up a bus. Shoot some settlers.

Israel would be under <b>tremendous</b> international pressure to revert to the 1967 borders <b>if</b> they were not being continually provoked. But they are.

It's a vicious circle. The Palestinians have the most to gain. They <b>have</b> to be the ones to stop it.

[tw]

[

Originally posted by dhamsaic
tw - I agree with a lot of what you say, and I really do have sympathy for the Palestinian cause. I am damn tired of reading every day about how 15 more Palestinian police officers have been killed, or some fucking moron blew up a disco in Tel Aviv, killing 21 teenage Israelis. The problem is, the extremists in each side do not want to live with each other.

First off, everyone agrees that Israel is there to stay. Anything said to the contrary is quite obviously a bargining chip. However extremist Israelis truly believe they will eject Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza. That is why the only reason for all this violence is extremist Israelis. They are the only reason for all these deaths because it is only the extremist Israelis that want another people expelled.

Second Israel is not being provoked. Extremist Israelis have been trying to create the violence all along. By creating the violence, they got the dichead elected. All current Middle East violence is directly traceable to Isreali extremist actions. ALL. This violence was clearly well planned and executed to include the murder of Rabin and the election of Likud. But then the previous post demostrates Likud strategy with examples.

Hamas has little support when Palestinians have a government. Read the polls from the Middle East or quotes by the BBC of Middle East Arabs. Why should Palestinians listen to their government - Arafat - when they don't even have a government, thanks to extremist Israeli actions. Even when the Palestinian government attempts to provide military protection, the US calls that shipment a terrorist action.

Israelis repeatedly ignore terrorists. Instead they attack things like the entire Census office setup by the European Union for a Palestinian state. What terrorism comes from a Census Bureau? None. Israel just wants any excuse to eliminate all Palestinians from the Middle East. Israel intentionally does not try to stop Hamas or Islamic Jihad terrorists. Instead they attack only Arafat government installations in response to a trivial bombing. Trivial because the death number do not exceed 100 people.

I encourage a massive increase in bombings because, at this point, it is the only reason that Israel will dump their extremist Likud party. Peace will never happen with the dichead or the other pathetic joke - the petty theif Netanyahu - in power. Only a steady increase in deaths of everyone in Israel - Arabs and Jews - will remove the dichead's government. Violence must increase drastically to get peace. Welcome to a dirty little reality in Israel created because fools elected an extremist government.

Don't be emotional on the Middle East. Such emotion only means things get worse. We should have taken away all support for Israel (massive) and the Palestinians (insignificant), and let them murder each other when Sharon took power. This is how America has been so successful when we accomplish peaceful settlements all the way back to the start of the 20th Century. When we interfere too early, we get failures such as VietNam and Somalia. Now, we have only aggrevated the problem by avidly supporting an extremist government that clearly does not want peace nor never ever will seek peace. Those who remain living will eventually detach their support for extremist Likud leaders. You are starting to see it this past month with a VietNam like peace movement - finally. It would have happened sooner except that too few Israeli civilians were dying.

The day that Israelis voted in the dichead, they voted for more deaths. They voted for a racist (as proven by international declaration) government that does not want to share the region with any other people. Arabs don't expect to expell Israel. But Likud expects to drive all Arabs from 'their' lands. Israel will reap what it sows until they find someone moderate to replace Rabin.

Don't fool yourself. Only massive death rates will get Likud out of power. Likud must be removed since Likud's long history is routine destruction of peace. No other serious organization is more dedicated to the destruction of a peace process. Peace is always contrary to the Likud party line - regardless of what their rhetoric claims. Unfortunately, our mental midget president instead encourages the Israelis to be more extremist at the expense of the Palestinians, UN 242, Oslo Accords, and - this is the part we must seriously worry about - America's relations with all nations from Morroco to Pakistan.

Did you see the Gallup Polls of 11(?) Arab nations? George Jr has successfully destroyed any good relations we had established with the Arab world since the Kuwait rescue. Details from those poll points not to US support of Israel, but of US support of a dichead as the reasons for a severe decline in US popularity. In one poll, a 77% adverse rating!

Arafat last week met every condition the Israelis demanded in bringing murders of a government minister to justice. The lying dichead then backed out of the agreement by doing what extremists Likud always does - change the conditions so that Israel does not have to comply. This is exactly what even a half intelligent president would not stand for. But George Jr only encouraged Sharon to break another promise. George Jr does not hold Sharon's feet IN the fire. Sharon is simply feeling week by week how much more he can get away with under a mentally inactive US president. Every month he gets away with more. Six months ago, the world would have never stood for Israeli tanks in Ramallah. But the US has seen to it that even that obscene action can now happen without protest.

George Jr has interfered too much without a clear and fair agenda. Either we go in under a UN mandate as peace keepers - as the meanest dog in the neighborhood - or we do what we let the Yugoslavians and Europeans do in the Balkins. It was Clinton's magic - to know when it was time for the US to interfere in Bosnia. We let them slaughter themselves so much that US interference was welcomed. All wanted peace because finally enough had died. It's not nice but it is reality. Too many must die before the remaining finally expell their extremist leaders. The Serbians are now cooperating to send their extremists to The Hague because finally enough had died in the Balkins.

Unfortunately, instead we provide the Israelis with more weapons to slaughter Arabs. We make peace impossible because we encourage a one sided slaughter. Whose weapons made it possible for Sharon to massacre 5000 Palestinian refugees?

Bury your emotions and be upset that violence is not aggressive enough to create peace. Bottom line is the dying must approach 100 per day on each side - the numbers on each side being equal. Unfortunately no where near enough Israelis are dying. If we are going to interfere, then lets do so by taking Sharon to The Hague for a trial long since overdue. Let's start demanding all Israeli settlements be dismantled by the end of the year or we start bombing them. Otherwise we must make it as difficult for the Israelis as it is for the Palestinians by withdrawing our money and let death rates increase drastically.

The organization most adverse to peace is ... the current Israeli government best know as Likud.

Who gets the most of US foreign aid? Israel. Israel and Egypt get over 50% of all US foreign aid. Egypt is not stealing land from honest people. Israel is. Estimate stolen land equals about 15 slaughtered civilians per acre per year. Reality is the land has more value than any people in that region. Those deaths are of insignificant people - pigs to be slaughtered - until we come to grips with why all this has started. It started only - point your finger only at - the Israeli Likud party and is primary reason - Sharon. They are the reason why human live in the Middle East has so little value.

Any Palestinian bomb is directly traceable to the reason for that bombing - Sharon.

Eliminate Likud extremists and peace would follow almost automatically. Hamas is an insignificant power if Arafat had a functioning goverment. Hamas only has power because of Sharon's actions. My original point. Extremists empower all other extremists. Hamas had no power until Sharon help Hamas recruit from the ranks of intelligent people. Hamas only has power as long as Likud runs or even influences the Isreali government.

If the deaths in the Middle East bother you, then advocate the kidnapping of Sharon by US troops to be put on trial in The Hague. That would quickly make peace an option. Peace would probably happen only because of natural human needs. Removing Likud would make peace completely inevitable. It is why Rabin almost made peace. No Likud in his government.

Currently, the only way to restart peace is 100+ dead civilians every day. Be happier when the daily death toll is higher - especially among Gaza and West Bank Isreali land robbers. That means peace is coming quicker. High death tolls will only result in a revived peace process because sanity will remove Likud. Unfortunately that will never happen when the US provides so much one sided support to mass murders like Sharon.