Catwoman's Important and Consequential Personal Drama (don't read if easily bored)

Catwoman · 05-03-2005, 06:13 AM

Well it's been a year (at least) since I posted about this.

Last time I was 'in love' (god we use that word lightly) and the object of my affections was, shall we say, undecided.

I don't know if I was in love then, but I think I might actually be now. I remember telling myself at the time not to actually fall in love. But I fell into it. Splash. Oops.

So... the relationship has been in many moulds since then. I find I am increasingly confused by the situation and not getting what I want; or what I think I want (and I can't tell the fucking difference between the two).

He wants, in his own words: 'Company, conversation, a bit of sex when I want it - with you and anyone else I like, and that's about it. I do not want a relationship. I don't want to marry you or have kids.'

I want, in my own words: 'Company, conversation, sex when I want it, physical affection, and to feel able to sleep with the odd guy and know I'm not going to break your heart. I don't want to get married (ever), or have children (right now).'

Some more astute people than I would notice a few minor imbalances there.

When asked, 'Do you care about me?' his reply is 'Yes, of course.'

When asked, 'Do you love me?' his reply is 'I don't know.'

When asked, 'Why haven't we had sex for ages?' his reply is 'Because I don't want you to get the wrong idea and get hurt. I don't want a relationship.'

The 'relationship' has, at different points throughout the past year or so, been wonderfully sensual, slightly distant, excited and passionate, just friendly, awkward, argumentative, strained, sex, no sex, and casual. I have been uncaring, in love, passionate, confident, insecure, fretful, determined, anxious and content. He has maintained a completely level head and repeatedly tells me 'nothing has changed since we met'.

His reasons for not wanting a relationship, in his own words, are, 'It's not real, we'll end up caught up in the things other couples get caught up in, like conservatories and relatives and new furniture.'

Now what he means by this is he doesn't want to lose his clarity. He is a very aware and rational person, and lives his life with minimal - if any - emotion. He believes it confuses people and stops them from seeing clearly, which I agree with.

EVERY other relationship he or I have ever seen or been involved in has ended badly. I don't mean dramatic break-ups or abuse; I mean people get together for the wrong reasons: the woman wants children, the man's 'making do', they're both insecure. Whatever the reason, between us we have never seen 'real love' in action and so doubt its existence.

So, our relationship right now is based on 'enjoying each other's company' (his words) and not 'love' (whatever that means). We'll stay 'together' for as long as we like spending time together.

Now this makes sense to me, you do see a lot of couples who don't appear to like each other very much: she wishes he would change, or he wishes she would stop nagging (just examples). We like each other exactly as we are, except I keep wanting to change something. I want more from him, and I'm ashamed of this because everything I've written so far makes sense.

What on earth could I want? Does this mean real love does exist, and I want that emotional connection more than anything? Do I just want his exclusive attention (ie I'm a bit insecure). Am I sticking to what I know? I was in love for the first time 5 years ago, with a different guy, and I thought that was real. But that didn't work either. And I don't love him now (I don't think).

Anyway it's a different feeling now. More subtle, likes it's there, but not ready to come out yet.

I think I'm rushing ahead of myself as usual.

So, I have come to the conclusion that I should simply 'go with the flow' and wait and be patient and see if any 'love' type thing results from this relationship, without hoping for it or rushing it or crying when I don't get it.

It's more difficult than that day to day though, emotions often get the better of me and I can't decide whether blocking them will make me stronger or turn me into an uncaring rock.

I can't seem to accept the situation as it is, and all my questions and answers seem so vague I often doubt if I'm talking about anything remotely tangible. Maybe someone could enlighten me as to what the fuck I'm going through, or if I'm not 'going through' anything and merely creating problems for myself to reinforce the comfort of sadness and feel bad in my identity.

jaguar · 05-03-2005, 07:10 AM

I can see two ways of looking at it:
1: You're getting taken for a ride.
2: Wonderful bloke with a lot of bats in the belfry, you might be able to get what you want from it down the road if you can ever get him to relax but it's far from certain.

conservatories and relatives are complicated. They happen anyway, it's just if you're with someone long enough they come up together. This will probably sound like right crap but if you can keep perspective and really above all, keep an open and honest dialogue (which is fucking hard) you can deal with conservatories, paint shades and even bedspreads without breaking out in a severe rash. Even jokes about kids have me plotting the route to the door, it's all about perspective. If anything the dealbreakers aren't stuff like conservatories it's stuff like joint bank accounts where you end up with any kind of dependance or interdependency, that's the shit you really need to avoid because then it's not on your own terms.

Catwoman · 05-03-2005, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

keep perspective and really above all, keep an open and honest dialogue

I think - as a couple - we could manage this. He thinks I will lose perspective and will always want something more from him, which (frustratingly) has proven true all along. I have always wanted more from him, but I think that is because I don't even have a 'base level' relationship. He calls me his 'friend'. If I was his 'girlfriend' I know I would never want anything more than that, and I could retain my clarity/honesty/openness.

I have explained all this to him, and he says he believes me, and that maybe it's because he's afraid HE will lose perspective. I think he's just saying that as a possibility - because he's so damn rational - and if he secretly, underlyingly wanted a relationship, he'd go for it and not hold back for whatever fear he may conjure up.

I think you're right - either I'm taking myself for a ride (because he's always maintained his position and never led me on, not verbally anyway) - or I'm way ahead of myself and need to just let things be.

Beestie · 05-03-2005, 09:17 AM

He's not in love with you. What else do you need to know? We've all been there and it sucks but it is what it is. There is no answer.

The one who cares the least dictates the relationship so either stay along for the ride (he's driving) or have him drop you off somewhere. When you get to the point where you realize that no relationship is preferable to a relationship characterized by hopes that will never materialize then you will have the freedom you seek out relationships that offer what you need instead of the nauseating uncertainty that seems to characterize the relationships you have described here.

Out of curiosity, are there a number of guys that have been available to you that other women thought were decent guys but that you found hopelessly normal, uninteresting or predictably boring? I think some people suffer from a malady whereby they form attachments to people who aren't really capable of returning the affection - for these people, the idea of a relationship with someone who can offer them unconditional acceptance and love is just unappealing. I don't know if this describes you or not but if it does, its a problem that needs fixin.

mrnoodle · 05-03-2005, 09:27 AM

I wonder if you're in love, either, Catwoman. I think you want to be in love, though, despite what you tell yourself to the contrary. But without commitment, the emotional love part goes away. You gotta work at adult, mature love. Doesn't sound like either of you want to do that. "I want you to stick around, but I want to be free to bed others at will" sounds like you've become accustomed to each other and don't want to lose what little affection you share, but you're not in love. Not by a long shot.

Just my opinion, of course.

jinx · 05-03-2005, 09:31 AM

I agree with Beestie, He's just not that into you. Stop making excuses and coming up with explanations for his behavior. Apply Occam's Razor.

wolf · 05-03-2005, 10:11 AM

Terrible shock, isn't it, to find you want to try to be all feministy, free, modern, able to have casual sex, and biology kicks in and there you are (quite possibly) in love.

Reread the thread where you were upset at some drunk woman in a bar for pawing him.

You were in love then.

He's just having sex, and apparently not a lot of that lately.

Catwoman · 05-03-2005, 10:13 AM

Ok ok, here's the truth.

I cannot understand WHY he isn't into me. Now, before you all start shouting your heads off or leaving the thread in disgust, let me explain.

I am perfect for him in every way. Superficially (and lets not pretend this isn't important) I have the looks he likes best (without going into a Hustler-esque description), I'm sexy (his words) and I have staying power and I am genuine and won't mess him around (I don't think).

Less superficially, I like him for him, just as he is, unlike a lot of girls who fall for his looks or identity or just want his children.

Even less superficially, we can talk to each other like no one else, we have both said on many occasions that we are the ONLY person who understands and we don't want to lose that.

As well as this, when we have been close physically, I 'sense' or at least I feel a slightly deeper connection, it's probably all me but there's a little part of me telling me he feels it too, to a degree.

There's more, but I don't want to get too detailed.

Now my question and continual pursuance of this matter is related to love in general, I suppose. If he doesn't love me, and love exists, then it is not rational or related to preferable genes or biology, but in fact more elusive and much harder to define than 'oxytocin'.

If love doesn't exist, I have hit upon the best relationship I am ever likely to encounter and should shut the fuck up and enjoy it for what it is.

Catwoman · 05-03-2005, 10:15 AM

Forgot to add that no I'm not trying to pretend this is a brilliantly executed scientific experiment of mine. It's all real and that last post has only just occured to me.

jinx · 05-03-2005, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catwoman

Ok ok, here's the truth.

I cannot understand WHY he isn't into me.

Love does exist, and the heart wants what it wants. Sounds like you guys make a terrific set of best friends though.

Catwoman · 05-03-2005, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie

He's not in love with you. What else do you need to know? We've all been there and it sucks but it is what it is. There is no answer.
...
Out of curiosity, are there a number of guys that have been available to you that other women thought were decent guys but that you found hopelessly normal, uninteresting or predictably boring? I think some people suffer from a malady whereby they form attachments to people who aren't really capable of returning the affection - for these people, the idea of a relationship with someone who can offer them unconditional acceptance and love is just unappealing. I don't know if this describes you or not but if it does, its a problem that needs fixin.

I wrote a reply to this but it's disappeared.

Yes, I am generally not interested in guys for the above reasons. They bore me to tears and I know they have nothing to offer. My first 'true love' gave me unconditional love and acceptance, but I got bored of that. What the fuck is the matter with me?

I want someone to stimulate me, excite me AND love all of me and for me to love them the same. Is that really so impossible?

mrnoodle · 05-03-2005, 10:55 AM

nah, it's possible. And you should hold out for it. Of course, no one is exciting, stimulating, and loving 24/7, and the day might come when you yearn for normality. Remember the Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times" (botched it, but that's the idea).

You'll eventually grow out of needing to be amused (not patronizing you, it's just a fact) and start feeling the need to give more than you receive. Ask anyone how they felt when their first child was born. That kind of feeling will be the one that signals "twoo wuv".

Beestie · 05-03-2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catwoman

They bore me to tears and I know they have nothing to offer. My first 'true love' gave me unconditional love and acceptance, but I got bored of that. What the fuck is the matter with me?

I want someone to stimulate me, excite me AND love all of me and for me to love them the same. Is that really so impossible?

My first tip is when you are typing your posts, type CTL+A then CTL+C every so often including right before you submit. This will copy the post into the buffer so if it gets lost, you can easily CTL+V to get it back.

I think its the "stimulate" part that's giving you trouble. It really sounds like you are "stimulated" by overcoming rejection (or a lack of complete acceptance) from people you are attracted to. Once they accept you, the stimulation is over and the boredom begins.

There is a solution to that problem but it involves professional assistance. You'll have to do some digging around in your past to figure out where that need is coming from and, for lack of a better word, engage it. It will require some work on your part and some time but if you don't start making some progress, the pattern will repeat and form a deeper and deeper groove and only get harder to climb out of.

One other thing to think about. You said that you were "perfect" for him. Well, that guy that loved you without condition was "perfect" for you.

OnyxCougar · 05-03-2005, 12:05 PM

It's not impossible.

It *IS* luck of the draw, chemistry, *mutual desire* and above all, LOTS OF HARD WORK.

That makes it improbable.

You are in love with him. Why do you have such a hard time accepting this basic fact?

Love is what it is, and it's different for every single person, and you will not love every person the same way. If you aren't happy with what you're getting from him, get it somewhere else.

Clodfobble · 05-03-2005, 01:49 PM

My first 'true love' gave me unconditional love and acceptance, but I got bored of that. What the fuck is the matter with me?

That guy probably thought he was perfect for you, too. But the reality is he wasn't because your feelings for him obviously didn't last. You want to be perfect for this guy, but the reality is probably that you are not, or his interest would continue to be piqued.

I think you deserve lasting, mutual love, and you are very likely to find it--once you set yourself free from the hope of an unlikely relationship with this guy, and start looking for someone who is also in love with you. Hell, tell this guy that since he knows you so well, and understands your need for a more involved relationship, could he perhaps introduce you to anyone he thinks might be right for you? It might be just what he's hoping to hear.

05-03-2005, 06:13 AM	#1
Catwoman stalking a Tom Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: on the edge of the english channel Posts: 1,000	Catwoman's Important and Consequential Personal Drama (don't read if easily bored) Well it's been a year (at least) since I posted about this. Last time I was 'in love' (god we use that word lightly) and the object of my affections was, shall we say, undecided. I don't know if I was in love then, but I think I might actually be now. I remember telling myself at the time not to actually fall in love. But I fell into it. Splash. Oops. So... the relationship has been in many moulds since then. I find I am increasingly confused by the situation and not getting what I want; or what I think I want (and I can't tell the fucking difference between the two). He wants, in his own words: 'Company, conversation, a bit of sex when I want it - with you and anyone else I like, and that's about it. I do not want a relationship. I don't want to marry you or have kids.' I want, in my own words: 'Company, conversation, sex when I want it, physical affection, and to feel able to sleep with the odd guy and know I'm not going to break your heart. I don't want to get married (ever), or have children (right now).' Some more astute people than I would notice a few minor imbalances there. When asked, 'Do you care about me?' his reply is 'Yes, of course.' When asked, 'Do you love me?' his reply is 'I don't know.' When asked, 'Why haven't we had sex for ages?' his reply is 'Because I don't want you to get the wrong idea and get hurt. I don't want a relationship.' The 'relationship' has, at different points throughout the past year or so, been wonderfully sensual, slightly distant, excited and passionate, just friendly, awkward, argumentative, strained, sex, no sex, and casual. I have been uncaring, in love, passionate, confident, insecure, fretful, determined, anxious and content. He has maintained a completely level head and repeatedly tells me 'nothing has changed since we met'. His reasons for not wanting a relationship, in his own words, are, 'It's not real, we'll end up caught up in the things other couples get caught up in, like conservatories and relatives and new furniture.' Now what he means by this is he doesn't want to lose his clarity. He is a very aware and rational person, and lives his life with minimal - if any - emotion. He believes it confuses people and stops them from seeing clearly, which I agree with. EVERY other relationship he or I have ever seen or been involved in has ended badly. I don't mean dramatic break-ups or abuse; I mean people get together for the wrong reasons: the woman wants children, the man's 'making do', they're both insecure. Whatever the reason, between us we have never seen 'real love' in action and so doubt its existence. So, our relationship right now is based on 'enjoying each other's company' (his words) and not 'love' (whatever that means). We'll stay 'together' for as long as we like spending time together. Now this makes sense to me, you do see a lot of couples who don't appear to like each other very much: she wishes he would change, or he wishes she would stop nagging (just examples). We like each other exactly as we are, except I keep wanting to change something. I want more from him, and I'm ashamed of this because everything I've written so far makes sense. What on earth could I want? Does this mean real love does exist, and I want that emotional connection more than anything? Do I just want his exclusive attention (ie I'm a bit insecure). Am I sticking to what I know? I was in love for the first time 5 years ago, with a different guy, and I thought that was real. But that didn't work either. And I don't love him now (I don't think). Anyway it's a different feeling now. More subtle, likes it's there, but not ready to come out yet. I think I'm rushing ahead of myself as usual. So, I have come to the conclusion that I should simply 'go with the flow' and wait and be patient and see if any 'love' type thing results from this relationship, without hoping for it or rushing it or crying when I don't get it. It's more difficult than that day to day though, emotions often get the better of me and I can't decide whether blocking them will make me stronger or turn me into an uncaring rock. I can't seem to accept the situation as it is, and all my questions and answers seem so vague I often doubt if I'm talking about anything remotely tangible. Maybe someone could enlighten me as to what the fuck I'm going through, or if I'm not 'going through' anything and merely creating problems for myself to reinforce the comfort of sadness and feel bad in my identity. __________________ I've decided I'm not going to have a signature anymore.

05-03-2005, 07:10 AM	#2
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	I can see two ways of looking at it: 1: You're getting taken for a ride. 2: Wonderful bloke with a lot of bats in the belfry, you might be able to get what you want from it down the road if you can ever get him to relax but it's far from certain. conservatories and relatives are complicated. They happen anyway, it's just if you're with someone long enough they come up together. This will probably sound like right crap but if you can keep perspective and really above all, keep an open and honest dialogue (which is fucking hard) you can deal with conservatories, paint shades and even bedspreads without breaking out in a severe rash. Even jokes about kids have me plotting the route to the door, it's all about perspective. If anything the dealbreakers aren't stuff like conservatories it's stuff like joint bank accounts where you end up with any kind of dependance or interdependency, that's the shit you really need to avoid because then it's not on your own terms. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

05-03-2005, 09:17 AM	#4
Beestie -◊\|≡·∙■·∙≡\|◊- Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Parts unknown. Posts: 4,081	He's not in love with you. What else do you need to know? We've all been there and it sucks but it is what it is. There is no answer. The one who cares the least dictates the relationship so either stay along for the ride (he's driving) or have him drop you off somewhere. When you get to the point where you realize that no relationship is preferable to a relationship characterized by hopes that will never materialize then you will have the freedom you seek out relationships that offer what you need instead of the nauseating uncertainty that seems to characterize the relationships you have described here. Out of curiosity, are there a number of guys that have been available to you that other women thought were decent guys but that you found hopelessly normal, uninteresting or predictably boring? I think some people suffer from a malady whereby they form attachments to people who aren't really capable of returning the affection - for these people, the idea of a relationship with someone who can offer them unconditional acceptance and love is just unappealing. I don't know if this describes you or not but if it does, its a problem that needs fixin. __________________ ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦

05-03-2005, 09:27 AM	#5
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	I wonder if you're in love, either, Catwoman. I think you want to be in love, though, despite what you tell yourself to the contrary. But without commitment, the emotional love part goes away. You gotta work at adult, mature love. Doesn't sound like either of you want to do that. "I want you to stick around, but I want to be free to bed others at will" sounds like you've become accustomed to each other and don't want to lose what little affection you share, but you're not in love. Not by a long shot. Just my opinion, of course. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

05-03-2005, 09:31 AM	#6
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	I agree with Beestie, He's just not that into you. Stop making excuses and coming up with explanations for his behavior. Apply Occam's Razor. __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

05-03-2005, 10:11 AM	#7
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Terrible shock, isn't it, to find you want to try to be all feministy, free, modern, able to have casual sex, and biology kicks in and there you are (quite possibly) in love. Reread the thread where you were upset at some drunk woman in a bar for pawing him. You were in love then. He's just having sex, and apparently not a lot of that lately. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

05-03-2005, 10:13 AM	#8
Catwoman stalking a Tom Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: on the edge of the english channel Posts: 1,000	Ok ok, here's the truth. I cannot understand WHY he isn't into me. Now, before you all start shouting your heads off or leaving the thread in disgust, let me explain. I am perfect for him in every way. Superficially (and lets not pretend this isn't important) I have the looks he likes best (without going into a Hustler-esque description), I'm sexy (his words) and I have staying power and I am genuine and won't mess him around (I don't think). Less superficially, I like him for him, just as he is, unlike a lot of girls who fall for his looks or identity or just want his children. Even less superficially, we can talk to each other like no one else, we have both said on many occasions that we are the ONLY person who understands and we don't want to lose that. As well as this, when we have been close physically, I 'sense' or at least I feel a slightly deeper connection, it's probably all me but there's a little part of me telling me he feels it too, to a degree. There's more, but I don't want to get too detailed. Now my question and continual pursuance of this matter is related to love in general, I suppose. If he doesn't love me, and love exists, then it is not rational or related to preferable genes or biology, but in fact more elusive and much harder to define than 'oxytocin'. If love doesn't exist, I have hit upon the best relationship I am ever likely to encounter and should shut the fuck up and enjoy it for what it is. __________________ I've decided I'm not going to have a signature anymore.

05-03-2005, 10:15 AM	#9
Catwoman stalking a Tom Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: on the edge of the english channel Posts: 1,000	Forgot to add that no I'm not trying to pretend this is a brilliantly executed scientific experiment of mine. It's all real and that last post has only just occured to me. __________________ I've decided I'm not going to have a signature anymore.

05-03-2005, 10:55 AM	#12
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	nah, it's possible. And you should hold out for it. Of course, no one is exciting, stimulating, and loving 24/7, and the day might come when you yearn for normality. Remember the Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times" (botched it, but that's the idea). You'll eventually grow out of needing to be amused (not patronizing you, it's just a fact) and start feeling the need to give more than you receive. Ask anyone how they felt when their first child was born. That kind of feeling will be the one that signals "twoo wuv". __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

05-03-2005, 12:05 PM	#14
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	It's not impossible. It IS luck of the draw, chemistry, mutual desire and above all, LOTS OF HARD WORK. That makes it improbable. You are in love with him. Why do you have such a hard time accepting this basic fact? Love is what it is, and it's different for every single person, and you will not love every person the same way. If you aren't happy with what you're getting from him, get it somewhere else. __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

05-03-2005, 01:49 PM	#15
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	My first 'true love' gave me unconditional love and acceptance, but I got bored of that. What the fuck is the matter with me? That guy probably thought he was perfect for you, too. But the reality is he wasn't because your feelings for him obviously didn't last. You want to be perfect for this guy, but the reality is probably that you are not, or his interest would continue to be piqued. I think you deserve lasting, mutual love, and you are very likely to find it--once you set yourself free from the hope of an unlikely relationship with this guy, and start looking for someone who is also in love with you. Hell, tell this guy that since he knows you so well, and understands your need for a more involved relationship, could he perhaps introduce you to anyone he thinks might be right for you? It might be just what he's hoping to hear.

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