What Saves You

Flint · 03-30-2007, 09:13 AM

I saw a church marquee on the way to work this morning, something like: IT'S NOT WHAT YOU DO THAT SAVES YOU, IT'S WHAT YOU BELIEVE JESUS DID. Well, that raises a few red flags for me.

I think that religion should try to make the world a better place. To make the world a better place, people need to behave better. To encourage people to behave better, I think they need the message: IT'S WHAT YOU DO THAT MATTERS. Instead, the message is: it doesn't matter what you do. Do whatever you want. You have a free pass, courtesy of God himself. How does this benefit anybody?

Now it's clear that making the world a better place is not the goal here (although I really think it should be); because the stated goal is what "saves" you. I think that's a selfish fucking goal. Do whatever you want, and here's how to save your own ass. I don't think encouraging people to "look out for number one" is the best cure for what ails the world. Again, how does this benefit anybody?

I can understand how people would be attracted to this idea, because it clearly appeals to the base instincts. What I don't get is: who the hell spawned this horrific idea in the first place, and why? I can't imagine it could possibly have any good intentions.

I think all religions share the same basic principles, and all of them are trying to achieve the same goal. The good parts of religion are a beautiful thing. But messages like what I saw on this marquee, they take a steaming dump right in God's face, and it disgusts me that people fall for this evil shit.

Shawnee123 · 03-30-2007, 09:35 AM

Pete: Well I'll be a sonofabitch. Delmar's been saved.
Delmar O'Donnell: Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward.
Ulysses Everett McGill: Delmar, what are you talking about? We've got bigger fish to fry.
Delmar O'Donnell: The preacher says all my sins is warshed away, including that Piggly Wiggly I knocked over in Yazoo.
Ulysses Everett McGill: I thought you said you was innocent of those charges?
Delmar O'Donnell: Well I was lyin'. And the preacher says that that sin's been warshed away too. Neither God nor man's got nothin' on me now. C'mon in boys, the water is fine.

Sundae · 03-30-2007, 09:41 AM

My take on their choice of wording in the marquee is to get the Emergency Cover Christians. You know, the ones who believe in heaven, and cross themselves for luck, and say that their pets and elderly relatives are with Jesus when they die, but don't step over a church threshold from one year to the next. They believe that all you have to do to go to heaven is "like, be a good person".

Well it's not, not according to the Bible.

I don't think the marquee is saying - it doesn't matter what you do. It's saying what you do is not enough, you need to worship too. And no, you don't end up just looking after number one if you follow Christ's teachings either.

Flint · 03-30-2007, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

They believe that all you have to do to go to heaven is "like, be a good person".

The sign in question seems to suggest that being a good person counts for nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

And no, you don't end up just looking after number one if you follow Christ's teachings either.

I didn't say a word about Christ's teachings. I have nothing but the deepest innermost respect, down to the core of my being, for Christ's teachings. The exploitative teachings of Christianity, which use Jesus as a recruitment tool, and bear little resemblence to his actual message, are an entirely different subject. Conflating the two is deeply troubling to me, on a personal level. It is disrespectful to Jesus.

glatt · 03-30-2007, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

The sign in question seems to suggest that being a good person counts for nothing.

They were trying to fit it all into a snappy slogan.

Sundae · 03-30-2007, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

The sign in question seems to suggest that being a good person counts for nothing.

I didn't read it that way, but I think it was deliberately worded to make people think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

I didn't say a word about Christ's teachings. I have nothing but the deepest innermost respect, down to the core of my being, for Christ's teachings. The exploitative teachings of Christianity, which use Jesus as a recruitment tool, and bear little resemblence to his actual message, are an entirely different subject. Conflating the two is deeply troubling to me, on a personal level. It is disrespectful to Jesus.

Fair enough.

I assume that if the message is outside a Christian church then the people who respond to the message will be Christians, or looking to become Christians. And the central tenet of Christianity is not "look out for number one"

Flint · 03-30-2007, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

They were trying to fit it all into a snappy slogan.

It's more than a snappy slogan. I've heard sermons on this, I've been to Bible studies about this (remember, I played drums in a church band for years). The idea of "not through good works alone" can be over-extended into truly disturbing areas. I've had serious discussions with Christians (at Bible study, which was between band practice and the actual service) tyring to get to the heart of this issue: if making you into a better person is not the goal of religion (and they say it isn't, the goal is praising the greatness of God or whatever) then religion has a serious problem justifying it's existence.

Flint · 03-30-2007, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

And the central tenet of Christianity is not "look out for number one"

The central tenet of Christ's teachings, or any religious teaching, is not that. But, the way people actually interpret Christianity easily can be.

Griff · 03-30-2007, 10:40 AM

This is a big point of contention between Catholics and redemptionists. RC's are supposed to believe that there needs to be a combination of works and beliefs. FWIW

lumberjim · 03-30-2007, 11:25 AM

i was astonished when i saw this:

lumberjim · 03-30-2007, 11:32 AM

but then, a little further down the road, i saw this one:

lumberjim · 03-30-2007, 11:33 AM

church sign generator

what a lot of fun

Shawnee123 · 03-30-2007, 11:47 AM

Awesome link, lj!

Shawnee123 · 03-30-2007, 11:51 AM

.

Sundae · 03-30-2007, 11:54 AM

.

03-30-2007, 09:13 AM	#1
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	What Saves You I saw a church marquee on the way to work this morning, something like: IT'S NOT WHAT YOU DO THAT SAVES YOU, IT'S WHAT YOU BELIEVE JESUS DID. Well, that raises a few red flags for me. I think that religion should try to make the world a better place. To make the world a better place, people need to behave better. To encourage people to behave better, I think they need the message: IT'S WHAT YOU DO THAT MATTERS. Instead, the message is: it doesn't matter what you do. Do whatever you want. You have a free pass, courtesy of God himself. How does this benefit anybody? Now it's clear that making the world a better place is not the goal here (although I really think it should be); because the stated goal is what "saves" you. I think that's a selfish fucking goal. Do whatever you want, and here's how to save your own ass. I don't think encouraging people to "look out for number one" is the best cure for what ails the world. Again, how does this benefit anybody? I can understand how people would be attracted to this idea, because it clearly appeals to the base instincts. What I don't get is: who the hell spawned this horrific idea in the first place, and why? I can't imagine it could possibly have any good intentions. I think all religions share the same basic principles, and all of them are trying to achieve the same goal. The good parts of religion are a beautiful thing. But messages like what I saw on this marquee, they take a steaming dump right in God's face, and it disgusts me that people fall for this evil shit. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

03-30-2007, 09:35 AM	#2
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	Pete: Well I'll be a sonofabitch. Delmar's been saved. Delmar O'Donnell: Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward. Ulysses Everett McGill: Delmar, what are you talking about? We've got bigger fish to fry. Delmar O'Donnell: The preacher says all my sins is warshed away, including that Piggly Wiggly I knocked over in Yazoo. Ulysses Everett McGill: I thought you said you was innocent of those charges? Delmar O'Donnell: Well I was lyin'. And the preacher says that that sin's been warshed away too. Neither God nor man's got nothin' on me now. C'mon in boys, the water is fine. __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

03-30-2007, 09:41 AM	#3
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	My take on their choice of wording in the marquee is to get the Emergency Cover Christians. You know, the ones who believe in heaven, and cross themselves for luck, and say that their pets and elderly relatives are with Jesus when they die, but don't step over a church threshold from one year to the next. They believe that all you have to do to go to heaven is "like, be a good person". Well it's not, not according to the Bible. I don't think the marquee is saying - it doesn't matter what you do. It's saying what you do is not enough, you need to worship too. And no, you don't end up just looking after number one if you follow Christ's teachings either. __________________ Life's hard you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac

03-30-2007, 10:40 AM	#9
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	This is a big point of contention between Catholics and redemptionists. RC's are supposed to believe that there needs to be a combination of works and beliefs. FWIW __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

03-30-2007, 11:25 AM	#10
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	lookie here i was astonished when i saw this: Attached Images __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

03-30-2007, 11:32 AM	#11
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	but then, a little further down the road, i saw this one: Attached Images __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

03-30-2007, 11:33 AM	#12
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	church sign generator what a lot of fun __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

03-30-2007, 11:47 AM	#13
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	Awesome link, lj! __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

03-30-2007, 11:51 AM	#14
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	. __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby Last edited by Shawnee123; 09-25-2007 at 11:49 AM.

03-30-2007, 11:54 AM	#15
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	. Attached Images __________________ Life's hard you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac

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