Palestinians and "desperation"

[Undertoad]

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2065703

Summary: an opinion piece that says suicide bombers don't bomb out of desperation (for lack of their own homeland), but out of hope (that Israel can be destroyed). The opinion that it's out of desperation is widely repeated because it's intellectually convenient.

(And I said it here first. Patting my own back)

[Yelof]

I don't see these two ideas as being mutually incompatible..perhaps out of desperation the impossible dream of defeating the Israeli coloniser seems a possibility.

Don't you think it just a little bit likely that if a person could live a life free of IDF harassment, if a person could feel more than a second class citizen in his own country, then that person might be less likely to carry out something as mad turning themselves into a human bomb.

The Palestinians have been getting a rough deal from no end of people, but mostly the Israelis, for over fifty years, it is hardly surprising if the extremists in their camp are wining the hearts and minds..In my opinion any argument that goes along the lines they started bombing us worse when we started talking peace to them, so we shouldn't talk peace to them is sick.

[russotto]

Originally posted by Yelof
In my opinion any argument that goes along the lines they started bombing us worse when we started talking peace to them, so we shouldn't talk peace to them is sick.

Sick? It's logically sound. Why should Israel do what demonstrably didn't work?

[Yelof]

I am not looking at this as a person out to get the best strategic position for Israel..I am looking at this as an uninvolved third party.

It is sick because it lacks any sense of ethics, because it treats THEM the Palestinians as a single entity, if one group of THEM commits violence they must all pay the concequences, so we will use THEM to jail each other (divide and rule..old hat) It is sick because it is an excuse to rollback what was a half hearted peace process anyhow. It is sick because where will such thinking lead..turn Gaza and West Bank into a jail for people send the IDF warders to beat up the trouble makers every now and again. Good luck for a solution to the problem, of course a large segment in Israel now don't believe there is any solution and would really just love to be done with the awkward problem of what to do with the original inhabitants.

Originally posted by Yelof
Don't you think it just a little bit likely that if a person could live a life free of IDF harassment, if a person could feel more than a second class citizen in his own country, then that person might be less likely to carry out something as mad turning themselves into a human bomb.

Hrm. Maybe if most ordinary citizens were suicide bombers, your argument would look less than retarded.

If you read the article, you would have caught the bit where he talks about placating the Palestinians. And you would have remembered that he said that even 100 or 200 people intent on killing themselves (and taking Israeli citizens with them) would still be enough to wreak major havoc. And if you had looked at other stats, you would realize this to be true, as there have been exactly <b>20</b> suicide bombings this year - 2002 - and look what they've done.

Then you would realize that placating the Palestinians does nothing to stop Hamas and Islamic Jihad, seeing as they vigorously oppose the idea of Israel having a right to exist.

Then you would understand why Israel <b>must</b> crack down on militants.

Please read the article thoroughly before posting again. It really truly does make sense.

[Yelof]

I will reply more when I have more time

but answer this one..

What exactly will Israel "cracking down" on militants solve beyond the short term..how will such a crack down contribute to making this sort of thing a part of the past..

I loved the crack pot analogy in the article equating Palestinians to the Flu

[Undertoad]

I agree Yelof, the important thing is to look long-term.

I don't believe I understand the whole thing, cos it's just so damn big. As Dennis Miller puts it, "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong." So here I go:

People smarter than me have been pointing out that the whole thing is a serious cultural "disconnect". Arabic/Islamic belief systems are different than ours.

Their society is an honor/shame society, and they desperately want to believe that their culture is superior to that of the west. Unfortunately for them, it isn't -- at least in terms of how its restrictions also fail to produce any economic growth at all, even standing on top of gallons of the most valuable natural resource in the world.

(sidebar: if you don't agree that economic growth makes a superior culture, try freedom, or democratic principles, or humanity to man.)

Israel, with the economic abilities that freedom and individual rights, grew into a world powerhouse in a matter of decades. No Islamic/Arabic state has been so successful since -- well, you'd have to go back aways. Like a millienia or so.

For the shame-based society, to have another culture so thoroughly thrash them is not only a silly matter of pride, but is brutally shameful. It's unacceptable to their belief system.

That's why Arabs could believe so uniformly that bin Laden had nothing to do with 9/11 and that the entire thing is an Israeli plot. Nobody must know it was us; it was a shameful thing. Our culture cannot go wrong.

And so, for the Palestinians, it is not so bad simply to be occupied, but to be occupied by the Israelis -- another culture, demonstrating its superiority to ours -- that is downright unacceptable.

Unfortunately, being right next door to a separate yet incredibly superior culture is also an unacceptable humiliation.

Now here's a compelling thought. The last time the US was forced to deal with a shame-based society was... the Japanese. In the 20s and 30s they believed that their culture was superior, that their religion was the favored one, etc. They quit believing that when the superior culture demonstrated its superiority in a very, um, compelling way, something they couldn't fail to notice.

But I can't end on that thought. The only thing more powerful than the A-bomb, friends, is western culture. And with communications technology, we can now export that culture from underneath. Its economic force cannot be denied, and the productivity gains that it creates will inevitably be bigger than oil.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Undertoad]

And one more thing. (I just can't stop writing. Somebody stop me!)

If you're in favor of stuff like human rights and against stuff like fascism...

Giving the Palestinians their own state tomorrow would probably be kinda bad for the Palestinians. They would inevitably be yet another Islamo-fascist state, with all the trappings thereof. You know, things like slavery, subjegation of women, beheadings, etc. If they were really lucky, they could end up like Turkey - Islamic, but kinda progressive. But there don't appear to be many progressives in that sector of the Islamic world.

With millions of Muslims, no oil, corrupt leadership and a cultural tradition of extreme violence, there's very little chance that a Palestinian state would be a voice for peaceful and loving diplomacy.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Undertoad

Their society is an honor/shame society...

Wow...hadn't thought of it that way. So very true.

I'm reminded of aviator and aviation writer William Langewiesche's story in the Atlantic about the EgyptAir 990 investigation. It really fits in.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/20...ngewiesche.htm

Langewiesche's father is Wolfgang Langewiesche, author of "Stick and Rudder", a classic aviation textbook.

[warch]

Very neokamikazi. I see the analogy, Japan wanted to rule "bring peace to their region" through their superior culture. The Islamic fundamentalists' desire is to turn back the clock to what is held as a truly great, historic civilization- Completely purged of Western cultural pollutants. A different measure of greatness. I see the "shame" as more a hatred of interference, democracy and cultural pollution. I agree that an immediate Palestinian state would be not so great for the Palestinians.
Suicide bombers dont act out of desperation, but duty. They're valuable and effective weaponry, meant to inflict damage on their enemy. Shine them up and show them off.

[Yelof]

Ok I said earlier I would return to the original article

far from deterring suicide bombings by Hamas, an "equitable settlement" would likely have provoked more.

Or perhaps not..I read in this months "New Scientist" an interview with Mahmoud El Zahhar 3 or 4th in command of Hammas
He is asked what Israel would have to do for Hamas to end its armed struggle.
"Get out of the Territories. If they are not here, whom an I going to fight?" This he says is the minimum. There are other things, such as the right of return for Palestinian refugees and the establishment of a Palestinian state. But nothing is possible while there are Israeli soldiers and settlers in the Gaza Strip and West Bank."
So some settlement seems possible with Hamas, and for sure not all would agree with the inevitable compromise, but they would end up like the Real IRA in Northern Ireland today, yesterdays warriors unable to give up the fight, almost irrelevant.

Prior to Israel's offensive in the West Bank, suicide bombers were striking at nearly a once-a-day rate.
So is Israel to continue demolishing houses and treating Palestinian areas like a war games area indefinitely? In terms of overall human suffering we'd be better off with the bombings, which without violent response and with instead dialog would eventually peter out. Israeli fear is fear to eat out at a restaurant, more of them die in car accidents each year then by bomb, the same cannot be said of Palestinians


last week's attacker came from the one location (the Gaza Strip) that Israel didn't target.

That the policy might be temporarily effective does not prove that it will be effective in the long run or that it is just.

Palestinian terrorism does not result from Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, but from Israel's existence.

so there is no hope for Israel then? as she shall have no peace until either she is gone or all her enemies are..there certainly are and will always be Palestinians who will fight for liberation of ALL the homeland, but there will be those who while perhaps never giving up theoretical claim will accept some other just settlement..the Republic of Ireland to this day claims all the island of Ireland and when conceived and at times that claim was a full wish of both government and people but with time the claim has become symbolic and may even be reversed as part of some final peace settlement.

Because terrorism long predates the 1967 occupation.

what resistance to the occupation of lands prior to 1967 proves that all Israeli lands must be returned for peace?
or perhaps reversal of 1949 might have seen achievable in 1963 but does not seem humane or realistic now.

Suicide bombings started only after the 1993 Oslo Accords, which provided Palestinians with their best opportunity for a state.

Many consider the Olso Accords to have been deeply flawed, the Palestinians gave away too much actual control to Israel and allowed Israel to defer to later any issues of real substance

see for here for example

The position I would advocate was IMO best expressed by Stickerboy in a kuro5hin post

A New Framework for Peace in the Middle East

Undertoad.. I know what you are getting at here.. hell I have been to both Egypt and Israel and I preferred the Israelis, and I didn't even like most of the arrogent pushy SOB's. Although I think there is a lot in Islam that is beautiful, and in the past it's culture was impressive and progressive now days much of it seems infantile and although I wouldn't use the term "Superior", they would contest that our culture is overly occupied with the self and would point to our treatment of the elderly for example.. never the less I know in which culture I'd rather live in. The Israelis have certainly done very well in Israel, but massive overseas funding must have something to do with it. That the Palestinians are motivated by shame, although anger and a sense of injustice would be more appropriate descriptives, does not matter if their cause is just.

Also the Palestinian Authorities record on Democracy is pretty bad and a Palestinian State could end up a hellhole but at least it would be their hellhole

[Yelof]

Basically why I replied to Undertoad's original posting is that I believe that the suicide bombings are the symptom, but the Israeli government would like to treat them as the disease itself. The disease is IMO the unjust settlement division of the land and power between the two peoples.

[Undertoad]

Good reply. Several good points.

I don't have anything in reply, I only have an interesting link to a very clear explanation of the shame-culture vs. guilt-culture that has nothing to do with the current struggle:

http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/shame_guilt.htm

[Yelof]

Interesting well written article contrasting shame and guilt..I liked those matrices.

I think shame explains more why the other Arab nations don't completely drop the Palestinian cause, it doesn't to my mind explain the motives of the Palestinians themselves

Originally posted by Yelof
Israeli fear is fear to eat out at a restaurant, more of them die in car accidents each year then by bomb, the same cannot be said of Palestinians

I'd be very interested to see facts which support your claim - i.e., the number of Palestinian deaths in car accidents for 2001 against the number of Palestinians killed by Israeli suicide bombing in 2001. Or even just bombing, period.

Now... just because the Hamas leader says that they would stop operations doesn't exactly mean that they would. For example, I can say "My penis is eighteen inches long", but this hardly makes it fact. What has been demonstrated so far is that when Israel is not attacking militants, Palestinian groups are attacking Israel, and when Israel cracks down on the West Bank, suicide bombings fall off very quickly.

In terms of overall human suffering we'd be better off with the bombings, which without violent response and with instead dialog would eventually peter out.

This line of thinking always amuses me. "I feel that the best offense is to run away. That way you instill fear into your opponents." Let's stop kidding ourselves here for a second and look at the situation. Israel cannot possibly afford to not retaliate for suicide bombings because in doing so, they enable Palestinian extremists. If Israel stops responding, it is the real-world equivalent of bending over and spreading your cheeks. Do you truly honestly believe that Palestinian extremists will stop the bombings if Israel discontinues the killing of militants? That's a foolish notion, and it's laughable. No matter what you read, no matter what they say, it is not as simple as "they want the West Bank and Gaza and Golan back." Let us not forget that those lands were acquired in the 1967 Six Day war which, while started by Israel, was a <b>pre-emptive</b> strike against nations that were preparing to attack Israel. There is hatred between these peoples that is simply impossible to comprehend from the outside. The West Bank is an excuse to wage war against a religion.

Your argument is for Israel to stop responding to attacks and create dialogue. Okay. How about... Palestinian extremists stop attacking and create dialogue? How come no one ever brings up that possibility? How come the pressure is on Israel? What <b>possible</b> justification would Israel have for attacking Palestinians if there were no suicide bombings or attacks on settlements? How the hell could they possibly justify that? They couldn't. The Palestinian extremists have the key to stopping the attacks and they refuse to use it.

Finally... do you really think that the Palestinian Authority is doing all it can to stop militants?

I sure as hell hope not. The lawlessness in the West Bank is unreal. Where else can people kill each other and then drag the dead bodies down the street without getting arrested, thrown in jail, tried, convicted and imprisoned? The PA and its police make almost no effort to quelch extremism and disarm militants. They are enabling it to happen.

So let's quit blaming Israel for everything. Both sides have caused a lot of the problems, and it's up to both to fix it. It's not as if Israel has the key and is failing to wield it.

[ Edit - ., $s/fo/of/ ]