I'm a Birdbrain

[Elspode]

Luvbugz, as stated before, I'm happy to engage in any sort of discussion about my particular path. However, Paganism encompasses a great many differing paths, and I'm by no means an expert on all of them. Like most endeavors, the moment you think you know all you need to know about your religion, you probably should immediately cease practicing it, because you'll be wrong.

Above all else, Wicca is an internal journey. All of the external trappings (lots of cool robes, magickal tools, graven images...all the stuff that the Bible says is bad) mean absolutely nothing in and of themselves. They are tools, just like any other tool, something you use in connection with your spiritual knowledge and efforts, to achieve a state of consciousness.

Wicca, as practiced by my coven, is a path that allows the practitioner much latitude in choice of deity, form of visualization, and source of energies from which to draw. However, like all religious paths, there is no one true form of Wicca. It has permutated since its codification in the early 50's since being brought into being by Gerald Gardner, and there are as many forms of the same basic religion now as there are of Christianity, as far as I can tell.

Most variations have a couple of things in common...first and foremost, Wicca is a religion of personal responsibility. You can't fuck up and blame someone else for it, and no one is going to forgive you. You have to make up for your wrongs. If you intentionally commit harm, you will expect that to be returned to you thrice over. Tends to keep one on the straight and narrow, if you accept that concept to be true.

Anyway, please feel free to throw questions my way. If you want to start a separate thread, please do shoot me a PM with the location and title as I sometimes have to browse The Cellar rather hurriedly, and I'd hate to overlook a topic in which I was supposed to be participating.

Oh...and there *are* a lot of Pagan assholes...probably at least as many as there are in the mundane world, because, in the end, Pagans are people first, and Pagans second. However, *I* am one of the nice ones.

[Whit]

From Juju:
Anyway, witches don't sacrifice virgins. That's just a myth spread around by Christians.

     Good, a virgin is a terrible thing to waste.

     Anyway, Ep, Goddess worship? I find this interesting. What is the role of the Deity if not to forgive or take away responsibility? Just to guide maybe? Also, what forms does 'worship' take? Other than attending what appear to be pretty damn cool festivals, I mean.

[Elspode]

Goddess worship in general is an acknowledgement of the female power of creation. Historically, goddess worship was very common, if not prevalent, amongst ancient peoples. These people were very much attuned to the Earth and the cycles of the seasons, and so their practices centered around the events closest to their lives...the turning of the seasons, the cycles of birth (Spring), life (Summer), harvest (Fall) and death (Winter). From the ancient's point of view, plants and animals went through these cycles, as did the entire Earth.

For modern Pagans, these events are symbols, representations of a natural process of which we humans are a part. Our deities tend to be representations of some aspect of the natural world. For some, these deities are as literal as is Jehovah is to his adherents, but for most, these dieties are symbolic, a way to visualize the creative and motive forces of our corporeal existence, and a link to our spiritual selves as part of the greater whole of the universe.

I guess I would say that the purpose Pagan deities serve is pretty much the same as the purpose served by Jehovah or Allah, with the exception of divine forgiveness. Our dieties are the creators and incarnations of the elements of the universe, and we are a part of them...and they of us.

My particular coven practices goddess and god worship in equal measure...we believe in the inherent balance of male and female energies in all things...sort of a 'it takes two to tango' kind of thing. There are Pagan sects which practice goddess worship exclusively, but that's for another post.

As for the Wiccan form of worship, it is ritual like any other ritual. We form circle, or sacred space, entreat the embodiment of the elements of the four directions, and the god and goddess, to join and watch over our proceedings, and then conduct our meditations, spellwork, or whatever within this place 'apart and separate' from the real world. We then share bread and wine (a practice older than the Christian communion), and then dismiss the dieties and elements, and dissolve circle.

Another thing that sets Wicca and a lot of other Pagan paths apart from mainstream religious practices is the fact that we are *all* clergy, in a sense. Anyone can conduct a ritual proceeding, even without others present.

There's a lot more to this, obviously, but this is the basic theme.

[LUVBUGZ]

El,
I want to preface this and future posts regarding this topic by saying...Please, do not at any time feel I am attacking you or your beliefs. I am asking/commenting because I am interested in learning more about it. My personal "style" is to basically say/ask what I feel which sometimes (often) is mistaken as argumentative, rude, or just plain bitchy. So, in advance, I apologize if I might happen to come across in this manner. Also, although I don't agree w/, buy into, or believe most of Catholicism, that is the only religion I have known and still find myself defending it at times. I know this is hypocritical, but old habits die hard (no pun intended...ya know nuns/habits). All this being said, my first issue is.....Wicca vs. Pagan. It may be a symantics thing, but I would consider you a Wiccan rather that a Pagan. For some reason Pagan just sounds 'bad' to me. I asked my dad what a Pagan is once and he said "Pagans where those Roman bastards who piliged, raped, and plundered." He by no means is an expert, but like I noted before good old Webster says a Pagan has NO religion. You also said you consider yourself as having a religion, Wicca. So, am I correct or is there some "New-Pagan" who does 'believe' in some type of religion?

[Elspode]

The definition of the term 'Pagan' has, in relatively recent times, become an umbrella term for persons who are not Christian. At least, that's the way those of us who fall under the heading use it.

The terms Pagan and Heathen derive from ancient times, and were descriptive of indigenous peoples in parts of Europe. These peoples worshipped nature, and had their own gods and goddesses (which varied by culture and geographic location). Since the writers of the history books get to pick the terms, they were named Pagan (from paganus, or country-dweller) or Heathen (literally, dwellers on the heath, or countryside). Since those writing the definitions felt that their own religions were the proper, superior ones, these indigenous peoples were assumed to have no religion...well, none that anyone need be concerned with, anyway.

There are several modern dictionary definitions for the word Pagan, I submit to you the following from The American Heritage Dictionary online. Definition #1 is the predominant definition in our modern, politically correct world.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/p/p0011100.html

So, I guess it comes down to this...Wiccans are Pagans (because our practices are rooted in the practices of the indigenous peoples of Europe), but not all Pagans are Wiccans. I suppose I tend to call myself Pagan more often than Wiccan, and that probably boils down to 'safety in numbers' than anything else. If you only count yourself as Wiccan, the group is smaller, but if you consider yourself part of all the Pagan subgenres, it becomes a substantial number, and that is essentially how our community functions. There's a lot of overlap, and we tend to support each other's paths and rituals, and merge our community efforts and outreach as a group of differents, operating mostly as a group of people with a path in common. Does that help any?

You needn't worry about me being offended by your inquiries. I am generally able to differentiate between honest curiosity and outright attacks.

[LUVBUGZ]

Above all else, Wicca is an internal journey. All of the external trappings (lots of cool robes, magickal tools, graven images...all the stuff that the Bible says is bad) mean absolutely nothing in and of themselves. They are tools, just like any other tool, something you use in connection with your spiritual knowledge and efforts, to achieve a state of consciousness.

I agree that 'external trappings' have no meaning on their own, but these (robes, magical tools, and graven images) are used as 'symbols', correct? Therefore, they do have meaning and are obvioulsy associated w/ Wicca. I think these things are cool looking, but it's their symbolism that I'm not sure about. I think these objects are what may "scare" outsiders because they don't know what their significance is and assume it's something bad/scary. So, what are these things used for? I'm sure there are way too many to explain them all, but just name and explain a few for me so I can get a feeling for their significance.

PS...I think I get it about the Pagan/Wicca thing, but I still consider you a Wiccan, if I may. Gee, I might even be a Pagan, I'm a country-dweller.:p

Webster says coven is a gathering or meeting of witches. What's your def.? Is this your particular group of fellow Wiccans, or is there more to it?

[Elspode]

The definition of coven is essentially correct. Wiccans consider themselves witches, and our worship groups are called covens, for the most part. I do know of at least one group in our town that has recently formed a Wiccan church...

Ritual tools are indeed symbolic, and any "power" these items have is only that which is imbued by its owner and user. Interestingly, many of the ritual items used in Wicca are things which are commonly found in the homes and hearths of the common people originally.

The first time my son attended a Wiccan ceremony was when my wife and I got handfasted. Following the ceremony, he reported to his mother that people were walking around waving knives and saying things he didn't understand. As she is the product of mainstream Christianity, and not terribly open minded to begin with, she totally lost it. It has taken me literally years of explaining to get her to not actively fear that someone was going to sacrifice something. Now she just says we're all going to burn in hell...

There is a lot of information out there for anyone who cares to look which explains pretty much every aspect of Wicca and other Pagan paths, right down to use of ritual tools, but most people don't really care enough to learn. It is far easier to say "my god is better than your god", and leave it at that. There is nothing to fear from a true practitioner of Wicca, but that isn't to say there aren't Pagan freakos out there, because there are. But there are Christian, Buddist and Muslim freakos as well.

[LUVBUGZ]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is...handfasted (married?)?

So what exactly were they doing waving knives around?

Not to get too personal, but with your beliefs differing so much from your wife's I would think this creates some strife in the marriage Her comment sounds exactly like something my dad (Mr. Catholic) would say.

Obviously, I care enough to learn or I wouldn't be asking, so if you could, would you direct me to some websites or other places to find out more about these rituals and tools? Preferably info. from the 'sane' Wiccans as opposed to the "freako" Pagans you refered to Thanks

[Elspode]

I should have been more succinct. My son's mother is my *ex* wife. My current wife (to whom I was being handfasted at the time, but to whom I am now legally married as well) is a Wiccan High Priestess, so we tend to see eye to eye on most religious issues.

Ritual cutlery is extremely common in Wicca. A double-edged blade, preferably with a black handle, is referred to as an "athame" (pronunciations vary, but ah-thaa-may is fairly common), and is used in ritual to direct energy, basically the same as a wand. An athame is more appropriate when doing more difficult magickal work, whereas a wand might be preferable if you were doing something like, say, encouraging your plants to grow better, that sort of thing.

Athames are never used to cut *anything* except air. In fact, if you do draw blood, you must break and bury it. There are ritual uses for knives where cutting *is* involved (no, not cutting on any living beings, except possibly plants), and for that, you use a boline (bo lean), a single edged knife reserved for ritual purposes.

BTW, most athames aren't even sharpened, although they are pretty darn pointy.

To be honest, I don't really glean all that much info from the Web regarding Wicca, but there is plenty out there. Warning...not all of it is good, but I really haven't taken the time to evaluate it all. If you are into reading, see if you can locate a book called "The Truth About Witchcraft Today" by Scott Cunningham. Although it is becoming somewhat dated, it is really the standard for dispelling untruths about the modern practice of Wicca and witchcraft (further warning: not all witches are Wiccan, and therefore operate under different standards of ethics than we Wiccans do, so don't assume than any witch you meet is in fact Wiccan...they might not be). If you find anything online that you feel is informative, but you wonder about it, send me the link and I'll be happy to tell you just how flaky or reasonable it is, *from my point of view*. There's a lot of variety, even within Wicca, of practices and ideas.

Oh...and handfasting is an ancient coupling tradition in which a couple promises to be together for a year and a day. At the end of that time, they may either renew their vows, or go their separate ways. I chose to keep the lady I was handfasted with eight years ago, and actually married her outright five years ago. Not surprisingly, our anniversary is on October 31st. It is the highest of Wiccan holidays, and we call it Samhain. You probably know it as All Hallow's Eve, or Halloween.

[Elspode]

I won't vouch for this site in its entirety, because I have only just brushed it over, but it seems to be fairly decent:

http://www.americanwicca.com/

As always, I am happy to elaborate, comment or otherwise add to any information you find, and answer any questions you may have about anythign you read or hear regarding Wicca, Paganism and alternative spiritualities...from my own point of view, as always.

I'm not always right about everything. It pisses me off, but darn it, that's just the way it is. I'm hoping to correct that sometime during this incarnation, though.

[LUVBUGZ]

Hey Els, long time no see. Back to my questions. So, w/in your coven what deities to you "worship" and what do they symbolize?

Catholics say it is a sin to worship deities and you'll go to hell for doing so. I'm assuming they don't, but do witches believe in life after death and that they may spend that afterlife in hell if they sin in life? Or, do they believe they'll get the "thrice over" thing in life and when the body dies that's the end of the story?

[juju]

My wife says that Catholics aren't considered Christians. Is that true? I thought that in order to be a Christian you just had to "accept Jesus Christ as your savior"?

[Elspode]

Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Hey Els, long time no see. Back to my questions. So, w/in your coven what deities to you "worship" and what do they symbolize?

We sort of pick 'em as we need 'em, I guess. Different deities symbolize different things, depending on their originating pantheon (i.e., Vulcan as God of the Forge...we use him when we want to boost creativity, or make something, be it physical or more evanescent; we choose Mercury if we want to improve communication, or Venus if we ask for assistance in becoming more loving). There is always the Goddess and the God, the male and the female creative and life forces, though, no matter what specific sort of spellwork we are doing. I guess the answer to your question is that we basically worship the Goddess and the God, in whichever form a person chooses to visualize that energy/force/deity.

Catholics say it is a sin to worship deities and you'll go to hell for doing so. I'm assuming they don't, but do witches believe in life after death and that they may spend that afterlife in hell if they sin in life? Or, do they believe they'll get the "thrice over" thing in life and when the body dies that's the end of the story? [/b]

Kind of odd for a religion with more saints than you can shake a censor at, isn't it?

Reincarnation is central to the Wiccan faith. We believe that all things are cyclic...it is based on the notion of birth, death and rebirth that we see as the seasons change. Celtic religions believed in the Summerlands, a place where you went after death where your spirit would walk forever amidst green, sun and plenty. That would certainly have seemed like a big improvement over the cool, damp Northern European/British Isles climates during the periods from which these beliefs arise. Basically, we believe that all of existence is an endless cycle, our own physical bodies included. Our spirits, we believe (as do many other religions, in fact), are timeless.

As for Hell...that's a Christian concept, not a Wiccan one. We don't do Satan, Hell or any of the other permutated visions of damnation, evil and punishment that Christians have concocted out of older, less malign light/dark concepts. So, the "Law of Three" applies to this life, I guess...although I suppose there's nothing preventing you from getting your comeuppance in the next incarnation.

[LUVBUGZ]

Originally posted by Elspode Kind of odd for a religion with more saints than you can shake a censor at, isn't it?

Yea, they gots lots of Saints, but I think they pay homage to them as opposed to "worship" them.

Celtic religions believed in the Summerlands, a place where you went after death where your spirit would walk forever amidst green, sun and plenty.

Sounds kinda like "Heaven" to the Catholics, but w/out the hell.

Basically, we believe that all of existence is an endless cycle, our own physical bodies included. Our spirits, we believe (as do many other religions, in fact), are timeless.

I've always wondered about reincarnation. So, is there a set number of souls that just keep getting cycled through. If a baby is born is it a new soul or just one that has been reincarnated?

[LUVBUGZ]

Originally posted by juju
My wife says that Catholics aren't considered Christians. Is that true? I thought that in order to be a Christian you just had to "accept Jesus Christ as your savior"?

I think Catholics are considered Christians, but for some reason I never liked that classification.