Childfree by choice

[elSicomoro]

First off, there is the word itself: childfree, not childless. My definition: A person that consciously chooses not to have children.

I personally would say that the movement is growing, although the internet could be the unifying force of the various groups out there. Some of them are quite militant. They will call children womblice, crotchfruit, or cunt nuggets. You won't hear it out of my mouth. I honestly love children; I just don't want my own.

For me, it started about 3 years ago. I have never really felt a real desire to have children of my own, but was willing to have one as an "appeasement" to Mimi (my ex-fiance).

After our breakup, I finally put my foot down. Any woman that was going to be with me would have to understand that I do not want children. Fortunately, I found one that is probably more militant about it than me.

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Of course, I have my reasons for not wanting children. Some people will use population stats and hard logic for theirs. Mine are simply personal reasons:

--No real desire (as previously mentioned)

--Too selfish: I like focusing on myself and Rho too much. I don't feel like sharing that attention. I want Rho and I to be able to do whatever we want (within reason of course): traveling, shopping, laying around naked, whatever. Having children compromises that.

--I like the current world, but I don't think it's a very good one for children.

--I like bouncing around as you may know (3 cities in 4 years, possibly #4 coming up). I could never do that to a child without scarring or uprooting them.

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Now, for those that have children, that's great! I hope you are financially and emotionally stable enough to provide a good quality of life for them...IMO, the core requirements for being a parent. And I hope they grow up to be good citizens of our world. (Griff, you rock!) After all, without people having people, our human world would cease to exist.

Obviously, childfree people come as a surprise to some. I don't know the exact reasons, so I can only assume:

--The true purpose of reproductive organs is to produce offspring. Makes enough sense.

--To some, it is unnatural. After all, we grow up, get married, have children, live to hopefully get old, and die. Childfree people throw somewhat of a wrench in that cycle.

--It's selfish and self-centered. Why WOULDN'T you want to share your love with a child?

These are valid points...but they don't move me.

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The responses commonly posed to people who state that they are childfree (and my rebuttals in italics):

--"You'll change your mind." (Nah. Three years now...I didn't come to this decision on the drop of a dime. I don't see my mind changing on this.)

--"God will provide for His own." (First off, your God is subjective. Secondly, this isn't something you can just wing financially-speaking. That's irresponsible and unfair to the child.)

--"They're a true joy." (Indeed they are. But I have no interest in having them.)

--"There is nothing like the miracle of childbirth." (I'm sure it is. That's something that you will be fortunate to share in...I'll pass.)

--"Why would you deny your parents grandchildren?" (First off, it's not about them; it's about ME. Although my parents are somewhat saddened by my decision, they're supportive of it. Lastly, they are not the ones that will be having a child, waking up with it, paying for it to go to college, etc. And I would never push it off on them either. I have to be concerned about my own happiness, not someone else's wish.)

--"Don't you want to carry on your family name?" (Family history is important, but I simply won't bear a child to carry on the name. Besides, I have cousins that have already carried on the Blastenbrei name.) (What I am thinking when someone says this: "Are you fucking kidding? I haven't talked to my father in 8 years...he's basically a fucking sperm donor. My father's family is dysfunctional as all hell...and it's bad enough that my cousins have already reproduced. Blecch!")

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Finally, we have the militants. Yep, they can be some mean ass bastards. On one hand, they make me sick...it's like they forgot that they were children once. They spew garbage that only makes us look bad. On the other hand, I feel bad for them. They're probably fried from getting so much flack and shunning from their family.

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So, that's pretty much it. Like it, dislike it, whatever. I merely ask for respect and understanding.

UT, I'd be curious to hear how you came to your own conclusions on the matter...or anyone else for that matter.

[Undertoad]

Good post sir.

As for me, I think it's a simpler thing: both my wife and I come from "non-standard" family situations, and for one reason or another, these situations made us less oriented around being parents. It's just not instinctive in us like it seems to be in most others.

I grew up with a single-parent mom and no siblings after my father died when I was 3. I have a close relationship with mom (she may well read this, for example), but it's not your traditional situation and somehow it makes me less driven to develop the same old family unit.

It also makes my view of the world fairly selfish, and on this point your words on the subject apply to me as well.

I still might have gone the traditional route if my wife were the family-oriented sort, but she grew up in a somewhat dysfunctional family, which led her to a complete disinterest in the whole family life. I can easily see how, despite having gotten past the dysfunction to become a very fine person, Mrs. Toad would pass along a lot of that dysfunction to children. And I would bring a lot of dysfunction to the table myself, what with my non-standard childhood. It's not that there's anything wrong with us, but one has to admit one's situation...

Also, I read once where people who were surveyed about their lives did not generally have a lot of second thoughts about their choice of spouse, but often did have second thoughts about their choice to have kids. Watching our friends' children and seeing how their lives changed, I just know that I would be one of those with second thoughts.

I definitely don't share the "how can you bring a kid into this world" sentiment. There is still progress in this world, and I believe that things are getting better, not worse. I don't buy any of the population bomb or zero-sum theories, and one couple's decision isn't going to have any impact whatsoever on the built-in human behavior of billions and billions of people. Bringing a child into the world who will be productive and create new things is a net positive.

My only regret is that I expect to have less of an understanding of how the world works and how people work. The understanding of developmental psychology that comes from actually developing a kid must be tremendous. I would like to have that kind of wisdom but the price is just too high.

[MaggieL]

I approached having children with enormous trepidation. I was not at all certain I had the strength of character or maturity necessary to do justice to the role of being a parent. I was married for 13 years before taking a deep breath and deciding I would do my damnedest to rise to the responsibility. (Of course, it was only later that it became clear to me that *some* of the dissonance I was feeling had to do not with being a *parent* but with other only marginally related issues.)

But speaking as someone who considers themsleves a successful parent (one daughter now 19, another now 14), I can state an *emphatic* view that it is *not* a job for someone who does not come to the role with a level of comittment that can only be had from someone who is 100% a volunteer. The resentment that someone must feel who felt the role of parent was somehow *imposed* on them must be excruciating. While I have frequently considered whether having kids was a mistake, I have always concluded that it was the right decision for me and my spouse-at-the-time. Our daughters are a constant source of surprise, amazement and pride.

Also from personal expereience, if you haven't decided you're going to tackle this job by your middle 30's, give serrious thought to how old you will be when your kids hit college. Personally, I would not encourage anybody to have children any later in life than I did.

Ther are all kinds of other ways to make a contribution to the world besides having kids. If your gut tells you it's not for you, you should listen.

[Griff]

I always try to respect other folks decisions especially when it comes to something as important as child rearing. I'm just glad there are people out there thinking seriously about their capacity or desire to raise kids. That level of maturity or self knowlege is something we all hope is as common among "breeders" as it is among the child free. Maggie makes a very good point about age, at some point you just don't have the energy to commit to kids and you are doing them and yourself a disservice. Thats gonna change from parent to parent, however, and knowlege of self is all important. My wife and I are suited to the child rearing lifestyle because we both like permanent situations, she because of her parents divorce and me cuz I like to take it slow and steady.

There is no one way to raise kids, we're going the focus on home route that others might not go for. One of my brothers buddies has a son who is probably around eight now and has lived in three or four countries. The home life remains steady only the background changes. Kids are wonderfully adaptable as long as the parent is responsible. A friend of mine quit his life as a lobsterman and moved his wife and kids into town, after living on an isolated island for many years. The kids know Mom and Dad are committed so the move while a huge change, hasn't been rough. I'm kinda rambling here so I'll just shut up until I think of something of value. nice thread

[elSicomoro]

This may come across as callous, which is not my intention.

I can remember growing up in the late 70s and 80s, when my parents would look for places to live, that a lot of places would not accept children. I believe that is now against the law. A lot of places have gone out of their way to make things more "family-friendly": One notable example are sports teams. The Cardinals have created a special area at Busch Stadium for families, where they can hold picnics and the kids can enjoy fun little things before the game.

But lately, I wonder...have we gone too far? Aren't there some things made just for grown-ups, beyond alcohol, tobacco, and casinos? I ask this because it seems Las Vegas, of all places, is trying to make themselves more of a family place...at least from ads I've seen recently.

And I can understand that to a degree. Las Vegas is a fast growing city (almost 500,000), where people obviously want to form a stable community and raise children.

But is it wrong for people to want places where children are not allowed or encouraged to be? Truth be told, Rho and I would like to go to restaurants sometimes and not be bothered by kids. I'm sorry...to me, taking young (less than 4) children to a sit-down restaurant is just asking for trouble. I certainly don't forget that I was that child once, and fortunately, I was rather well-behaved. But I would imagine that some of those folks going to the restaurants are actually parents trying to get away from their kids for the night.

I would love to live in a place where there are no children around. Granted, we don't have a lot of children in our complex (and our complex is huge--almost 500 apartments), but I would love to see a place that caters to childfree people. After all, we have places that cater to retired folks...and the minute we would even think of getting rid of them, the AARP would be there with guns blazing. And if I want to see children playing and being carefree, I can always go to a park.

(After typing that, I thought, "Oh shit, that doesn't sound good." But hopefully, the jist of what I am saying is understood.)

I guess, in a way, there ARE places where there are few or no children. I probably just need to get rich to live in them.

For the parents out there: Do you feel that your choices are hampered when going out as a family? Or do you feel that there are choices aplenty? Maybe I just need another perspective on this.

[perth]

its not insensitive at all. it would be nice to go somewhere where one never has to worry that the people in the next booth over will have a screaming spoiled brat child. ive been a father for almost 9 months now, and thankfully, my son has a pleasant disposition. but now matter how good a kid he is, there are places its inappropriate ot take him. generally, common sense should dictate where i can and cannot reasonably take my chilld. and thats what it boils down to. if parents used a little common sense, this would be a moot point. parents would realize that disneyworld is a better vacation hotspot than the vegas strip. if you take your child into a restaurant, and the host(ess) doesnt offer a kids menu, its probably not real high on the list of places you should take your kid. and a movie theatre is never appropriate for a child under 2, unless that theatre happens to be filled with other 2 year-olds excited to see disneys latest family fare.

child-free communities? i really dont see anything wrong with that. people want different things. im having a house built right now. part of the reason we chose the neighbourhood we did, was because a lot of the people building in that are young families who have, or will have, children close to my kids age. if i can make that choice, certainly its justifiable to want to make the choice on the other end of the spectrum.

i do find it a bit harder to find things to do that are appropriate for my family. i chalk that up to inexperience. before i found out i was gonna be dad, i spent a lot of time at bars and drinking with friends. not exactly the right environment for a child. so i think that gets better as he gets older and as i figure out where exactly children are welcome.

ive never been to vegas, and i doubt i ever will. i think todays vegas is far from sinatras ideal. and sinatra rules.

~james

[Griff]

When my wife and I go out we enjoy watching other peoples child based catastrophes, we get to exchange the look, ah not our problem. Like James we're fortunate because our kids are well behaved but we try not to put them in situations destined for failure. I know parents who think they have the right to drag their screaming monsters into all situations and it bugs me to no end.

I'm coaching my older daughters Pony League team this spring and my younger daughter has T-Ball so these are opportunities we didn't have for entertainment before. If not great baseball, both these leagues are highly entertaining. We've been going to AA minor league games as a family and that is a very kid friendly enviroment, folks have a couple beers but in a relaxed atmosphere, with a bunch of kids activities worked in around the game. We left early from a minor league hockey game last winter due to the level of violence creeping from the ice into the stands. It was a game against Elmira so the drunks from both towns were available, bad call on our part...

[juju]

To take the age thing a little farther..

You're much less likely to even be able to have kids as you get older. And if you do have a kid at, say, 40, it's much more likely to have birth defects. So, people who want to have kids some day can't exactly put it off for very long.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by perth
i do find it a bit harder to find things to do that are appropriate for my family. i chalk that up to inexperience. before i found out i was gonna be dad, i spent a lot of time at bars and drinking with friends. not exactly the right environment for a child. so i think that gets better as he gets older and as i figure out where exactly children are welcome.

James and Ooza: If you don't mind me asking...was little James planned? The only reason I ask is b/c I know that James is only a few years younger than me (from your profile), and I know that a few of my friends are starting to have their own kids. One couple in particular was already ready to "settle down" and start the family about a year before she became pregnant. Were you both like, "Okay, let's do this!" ahead of time, therefore possibly making it easier to adjust to the different lifestyle?

I'm just curious, simply b/c I don't have that "frame of mind."

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by juju2112
You're much less likely to even be able to have kids as you get older. And if you do have a kid at, say, 40, it's much more likely to have birth defects. So, people who want to have kids some day can't exactly put it off for very long.

When my friend's youngest sister graduated from high school in '96, the dad had been retired for 3 years (mid-60s) and the mother was one year from retirement (early 60s). There is a 10 year difference between youngest and oldest. And you could just tell...they were tired.

Of course, they were devout Catholics, but that's another story.

[juju]

Yeah, it's definitely possible to have a kid in your 40's. It's just that your odds aren't very good.

[perth]

james was, officially, unplanned. we had been married about 14 months, and we had talked about it quite a bit. i think we both wanted one, but were unsure whether or not we were ready. all it takes as a bit of irresponsibility, though in this case the irresponsibility might have been slightly intentional. ill never forget the night we got a pregnancy test. it was one of those ones that changes colours within 3 minutes if youre pregnant. i started dinner and she did her thing. she rolls into the kitchen not a full minute later and says "that didnt take no damn 3 minutes!".

i think if we had waited until we felt like we were ready, it never would have happened. i dont think you can fully prepare for something like this. i think it boils down to how you want your future to play out. i really wanted kids, but i did not want them to be just leaving home when im 50 years old. i can see how other people decide to wait until later in life though, because they have plans for the present.

~james

Personally, I'm probably going to wait until I'm 26, 27, 29... I want to be financially secure so there's no question whatsoever that I have the means to take care of a child... and also emotionally ready.

My parents were both 32 when they had me, and I'm glad that they had waited - my father has matured throughout the years, and as he gets older, he becomes more adept at handling children. Not physically handling, but mentally. I've learned a lot from him, and I hope to apply it some day... but I want to make sure that I'm capable of doing so.

So that, in a nutshell, is my reason for waiting.

[warch]

Well Syc...How'd I miss this thread? One should learn not to breeze so quickly through the land of the Sycamore..

The Warchs are childfree by choice. We've been married now for 12 years (yikes time flies) and we both agreed that its not what we want together.

Curiously I was more prone to maternal instincts when I was single. I think I was craving the intimacy and love more than the parenthood. And since our relationship, maybe we parent each other- thats probably the case, the desire has gone. I do wonder at times if I will regret this decision, clock is ticking ya know...and I do have pressure from Mom,(but to please her is not reason enough to create a life!) And what I wonder most now is just missing that learning experience of love. But there are lots of children here to love, and who need to be. (and then I can go home to my quiet house and do my own thing- the selfish-in-a-good-self-aware-way reasoning....)And I do love kids,not being a parent allows me this nebulous place with kids, I relate to them as a kid cause that's the part I know.

Now Mr. Warch has no paternal desires at all. He had a hard childhood, was a very late child and his mother was ill and died early on. He was pretty much raised by his elderly dad, a saint, and he sees no way in hell to live up to that model of parenthood- give it all up, all your life for your kids. His father is dead now and he likes the loner, tiny family we have. To be honest, I think he doesnt have the emotional strength for that level of responsibilty. He also doesnt believe that he would be able to work as a musician, and would be pressured(he would guilt himself.) into a steady day job. So our family is two.

[SteveDallas]

You know, what pisses me off about a lot of discussions about this.. but not this one, because, this being The Cellar, we can discuss a controversial idea civilly.. (most of the time.. almost always...)...

What pisses me off is the idea that this subject matters, or that anybody should care.

What I mean is that the reason the childfree-by-choice folks get so worked up (Womblice?? ) is that there are so many people who feel like it's your freakin' DUTY to go out and have kids. Even if you don't want to. Even if you can't afford it. Even if you know you're too damn lazy to get up from watching Monday Night Football to change a diaper. And, vicious circle-style, this somewhat selfrighteous and obnoxious rhetoric from a small minority of the more imflammatory non-breeders becomes very offensive to some parents. etc. etc. etc.

Did it ever occur to any of these nuts (on both sides) that they should just shut their mouths and mind their own business?


"Why can't we all just get along?"