Hezbollah night-vision gear manufactured in Britain

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Both sides claim their right on religeous grounds. Most settlers are orthodox Jews claiming religious reasons for their territory.

With some archaelogical support, unless you try and dismiss the Biblical Archaeological Review as a monthly fantasy magazine or something. As for Moslem religious claims, they have a heavy flavor of Muhammed-come-lately to them. No way would they have primacy. Also no particular reason to call for throwing them out, either.

Cluster bombs are indiscriminate weapons. The fact that they were used proof the fact. It is not my claim, just the simple fact they used it.

Both sides use indiscriminate weapons, albeit Israel on a much larger scale and that's what I meant with the splinter and the beam.

Bombs, period, are indiscriminate. I cannot get more worked up about cluster munitions vs. Mk 84 2000-pound GP free-fall bombs in any rational way, for reasons seen above. And any unexploded ordnance of any description is still trouble, and the way to bet is it's trouble on a hair trigger. They're still losing farmers around Mons, Verdun, and the Somme to stuff that landed there ninety years ago.

All tough talk from your comfy EZ chair, UG. Come back to me when you find them in your room and back garden. And tell Maggie when she goes bezerk again about these nasty Katushas...

If you are currently active in EOD work, Hippikos, then and only then may you talk shit to me about UXO. Unless you are currently active in EOD work, you've got no call to kick. Nor would it hurt to spell "berserk" or "Katyusha" right [stress the first syllable, btw, KAHT-yusha... can't tell you why the Russians called a bombardment rocket "Kathie," but they did]. If you're going to piss people off, don't do it stupidly -- we tend to put your balls in the Osterizer and hit "pulse."

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

Once the report implies all kinds of Iranian government control and intervention, then it is obviously propaganda. Iran is nothing more than a supplier - as Nigeria is a major oil provider for the US.

Ah....your sources are facts, any that contradict must be propiganda. Your reasoning is logic, other's reasoning is hysteria.

Can you tell the difference between a supplier/customer relationship and belligerent/surrogate one?

We pay Nigeria for oil....that makes us a customer. Hezbollah gets their weapons (and crews for them) from Iran, for free, with a cash subsidy besides. And then is expected to use them when and where Iran directs.

Like when Iran wants a distraction from their nuclear program. Or when Iran wants a credible capability to retaliate against a strike on the facilities that make up that program. How nice to be able to hold Haifa hostage, if you're going to thumb your nose at UNSCR 1696 as you did at 1559.

A victory was so obvious that the Olmert government may fall early to Likud.

We'll see. A lot of that may depend on how much spine is shown in the coming weeks and months to resist any one-sided implementation of the ceasefire resolutions.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

With some archaelogical support, unless you try and dismiss the Biblical Archaeological Review as a monthly fantasy magazine or something.

Heh, you probably could. But even if you accept the Bible as a history book, it's about the Israelites invading and taking the land from those who lived there. There's no original claim there.

[tw]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

How nice to be able to hold Haifa hostage, if you're going to thumb your nose at UNSCR 1696 as you did at 1559.

Which again ignores the bottom line. United States announced intent to unilaterally attack Iraq, Iran, and N Korea. Why would those countries listen to the UN when the UN would not even stop US 'Pearl Harbor' attacks? All this nonsense about Iran uranium enrichment ignores the bottom line fact. They must build every weapon necessary to defend themselves. The United Stated right wing extremists intend to attack Iran as soon as forces can be made available.

Want to stop proliferation? Start with the number one reason why proliferation is necessary. It is called pre-emption. A concept advocated by ‘big dic’ mentalities. A unilateral attack of anyone who might later become a threat. No, not an attack due to a smoking gun. Not even an attack due to a threat. An attack because they *might* become a threat. Therefore N Korea and Iran have excellent reasons to build weapons ASAP.

It was called containment. It worked well for 50 years - when used by every president - at stopping such problems. Containment also permits the one thing that stops all wars: negotiation. What is not possible when a 'big dic' mentality creates American foreign policy? Negotiation. And so the world is again on a road to inevitable war. We won't even talk to Iran and N Korea - and both are begging for talks with the US. The difference is that America is and wants to be the aggressor.

BTW, if so worried about Iran uranium, then why would we sell nuclear material to another nation that does not abide by the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty - India? In classic George Jr style - the Cheney doctrine - we will undermine another international treaty - Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty - by selling nuclear materials to India. This is for world peace?

Do you worry about details or do you first view a big picture? If Haifa becomes a victim, it is a victim of those who are working for Armageddon. Pre-emption, destruction of international agreements and treaties (Anti-Ballistic Missile, Oslo Accords, Nuclear Non-proliferation, even promises to Russia), and unjustified 'Pearl Harbor' invasions all only mean more war, death, and destruction. Armageddon is what George Jr's supporters want. No wonder they cannot be bothered to go after bin Laden. An alive bin Laden is but another excuse for more 'big dic' actions.

I don't thumb my nose at solutions. I confront perspectives that are so dangerous. Let us not forget that if Gen Curtis LeMay - another 'big dic' mentality - had his way, then the Cellar would not exist. Bottom line: a 'big dic' mentality is the most dangerous concept we face today. Far more dangerous than UN resolutions routinely ignored by Iran and israel. The ‘big dic’ is advocated by the person who tells George Jr what to do - VP Cheney.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

Which again ignores the bottom line.

Ah, "the bottom line" has now replaced "facts" and "reality". I suppose that's progress.

Originally Posted by tw

United States announced intent to unilaterally attack Iraq, Iran, and N Korea

I must have been out that day. Unless you meant this:

Originally Posted by Bush43

States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world. By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger. They could provide these arms to terrorists, giving them the means to match their hatred. They could attack our allies or attempt to blackmail the United States. In any of these cases, the price of indifference would be catastrophic.

Calling that "announcing intent to attack unilaterally" is a stretch, even for you.

Originally Posted by tw

I don't thumb my nose at solutions.

As much as it may disappoint you, I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about Iran.

[tw]

Originally Posted by tw

United States announced intent to unilaterally attack Iraq, Iran, and N Korea.

Originally Posted by MaggieL

I must have been out that day.

You heard George Jr announce his intents in his 2002 State of the Union address. George Jr defined the axis of evil (as if united in their intentions to attack the US - a total myth).

Funny. This president is still preaching a naive and outrightly stupid idea of a mythical and united terrorism network. He is preaching to those who share Cheney's 'big dic' mentality. An intelligent centrist should have seen through this lying president long ago when Bremmer and George Jr created the Iraqi insurgency by firing the army and police (in direct violation even of Military Science 101 principles).

Neocons also wanted to put Syria on that 'evil' list. But Syria was a quiet ally of the US - doing much of American spying in Iraq.

When neocons wish for enemies hiding everywhere, then they create such enemies. Welcome to Iraq. Saddam was doing everything possible to remain on America's good side. Saddam had zero intention to attack the US or harm Americans - a fact that everyone should now acknowledge. So neocons preached to those easily enticed by 'big dic' biases - to spin Saddam into some kind of world threat. Neocons lied to those too biased to see otherwise.

Those who repeatedly believed the lying George Jr will never understand their biases. A 'big dic' mentality needs enemies to justify their existence. Those with a Gen Curtis LeMay view of a world in 'black and white' need enemies.

George Jr gave us the list of countries he intended to 'fix'. This for numerous reason originally defined by 'Project for a New American Century’ including a demand that we 'secure OUR oil'. Whose oil? Our oil - part of the 'big dic' mentality. This also accomplished by imposing democracy on others whether they wanted it or not.

George Jr listed countries he (Cheney) intended to fix: the axis of evil. It is basic to the dangerous and ignorant policy called pre-emption. Those with 'big dic' mentalities somehow assume Iran is a threat to the US. We get the enemies we want. A policy that 'big dic' mentalities love with its hype of military solutions.

MaggieL conveniently forgets what put the death knife into the back of an Iranian reform movement. That 'axis of evil' speech. She forgets this to promote a 'big dic' solution - to see enemies everywhere - to ignore that George Jr list of countries the US intends to 'Pearl Harbor'. No wonder American popularity plummeted from above 70% approval to below 20%. 'Big dic' Cheney mentality is alive and well with a desire to promote Armageddon - especially in PA's Senator Santorum.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

You heard George Jr announce his intents in his 2002 State of the Union address.

That's exactly what I quoted. And then I said...

Originally Posted by Maggiel

Calling that "announcing intent to attack unilaterally" is a stretch, even for you.

Are you ignoring that what you're referring to is exactly what I quoted because you're trying to distract attention from what a huge leap your interpretation is, and the claim holds up better if your readers don't actually have the words in front of them?

Or is it because you're so blinded by your tunnel-vision hatred of Bush that you didn't even recognize the very speech you're referring to?

[Hippikos]

With some archaelogical support, unless you try and dismiss the Biblical Archaeological Review as a monthly fantasy magazine or something. As for Moslem religious claims, they have a heavy flavor of Muhammed-come-lately to them. No way would they have primacy. Also no particular reason to call for throwing them out, either.

My archaelogical support is that the population in Palestine (jews and arabs) lived there peacefully for centuries, while the Zionists base their claim on the 80 years Kingdom of David and Solomon, 3000 years ago. The US has to return a lot of territory to the Indians with your logic, maybe even where you live right now?

Bombs, period, are indiscriminate.

Duh...that's what I'm trying to tell MaggieL all time...

If you are currently active in EOD work, Hippikos, then and only then may you talk shit to me about UXO. Unless you are currently active in EOD work, you've got no call to kick. Nor would it hurt to spell "berserk" or "Katyusha" right [stress the first syllable, btw, KAHT-yusha... can't tell you why the Russians called a bombardment rocket "Kathie," but they did]. If you're going to piss people off, don't do it stupidly -- we tend to put your balls in the Osterizer and hit "pulse."

Are you so desperate that you have to resort to spelling nitpicking and keyboard warrier tough talk now, Professor UG? Is that all you've got left to discuss? The only thing that's in the Osterizer is your credibillity.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerilla

Bombs, period, are indiscriminate.

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Duh...that's what I'm trying to tell MaggieL all time...

Again we fail to distinguish the distinguishable when the confusion benefits trying to establish moral equivalance where in fact there is none.

Even UG's gravity bomb can be fairly precicely targeted, when compared with an unguided or crudely guided rocket warhead Since we're talking WW II-era tech in the case of what Iran gives to Hezbollah, compare UG's 500-pounder delivered from, say, an altitude of 2,000 feet using a Norden bombsight with the Vergeltungswaffe-I (no accident they're called vengance weapons) or -II. This *is* rocket science, you know...and to use anything less primitive than the most random weapons Iran had to provide Hezbollah with crews as well as the weapons and launchers themselves. But it's still a total crapshoot...just at a longer range.

An unguided rocket is vastly more indiscriminate than an aimed gravity bomb, which is itself more indiscriminate than, say, a sniper firing from concealment with a match-grade .30-06 and a 10x scope, who can drop one selected target while leaving five others standing around him. I think what UG meant to say is that once you're standing next to one, the effects of most UXO losing their "U" status are similar.

I'm refrring to the amount of discrimination used in the attack. A suicide bomber can walk right into a selected pizza shop befoire detonating (assuming he doesn't panic and push the button at a security checkpoint). He *can* discriminate, he just doesn't give a shit; all Israelis are his targets, and any one will do. The same is true of Hezbollah.

A typical liberal will try to distract you by painting a picture of how powerful a weapon is to prevent you from contemplating how horrible the intent of an assailant is. That's as true in this case as it is in gun confiscation debates here in the US...a liberal will take away your legal handgun while leaving the criminals armed, just as Kofi Annan insists the Israelis withdraw and drop their blockade without demanding anything like compliance from Iran, Syria and their Hezbollah henchmen.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

A typical liberal will try to distract you by painting a picture of how powerful a weapon is to prevent you from contemplating how horrible the intent of an assailant is.

And the intent of a cluster bomb is to render a large area uninhabitable by civilians or the enemy until cleared, placing not only the enemy who are immediately occupying the area at risk, but returning civilians after the conflict is over.

This makes the use of the weapon more a matter of collective punishment than purely tactical.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by richlevy

And the intent of a cluster bomb is to render a large area uninhabitable by civilians or the enemy until cleared,...

Not all "cluster bombs" are the same, so you can't attribute the same intent to them all.

Can you cite a credible reference that indicates that the Israelis have used delay-fused submunitions against an arguably-civillian target in this conflict?

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Not all "cluster bombs" are the same, so you can't attribute the same intent to them all.

Can you cite a credible reference that indicates that the Israelis have used delay-fused submunitions against an arguably-civillian target in this conflict?

From CNN.

Since a U.N.-brokered cease-fire took hold August 14, eight Lebanese have been killed by exploding ordnance, including two children, and 38 people have been wounded, according to a U.N. count.

"A lot of them are in civilian areas, on farmland and in people's homes. We're finding a lot at the entrances to houses, on balconies and roofs," Farran said. "Sometimes windows are broken, and they get inside the houses."

Maybe they mistook the garden gnome for a Hezbollah militant?

[Hippikos]

MaggieL is going out of her way and twisting in the most impossible turns to prove that cluster bombs are justified because they have a precision of 3 football fields instead of one village.

In order to use your phraseology; The Israeli doesn't give a shit that civil population will be harmed by the cluster bombs, because they had absolutely no clue where the ka-ty-ushas were being launched when they dropped the cluster bombs.

From Iraq experience we and Israel knew that at least 50% of the bomblets will not explode on impact but in a later stage when picked up or stumbled upon.

And why do you think US State Department will investigate the use of their cluster bombs?

[tw]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Or is it because you're so blinded by your tunnel-vision hatred of Bush that you didn't even recognize the very speech you're referring to?

The man lies repeatedly and you still support his anti-Americans actions. He promotes torture and you have no problem with that. He unilaterally 'Pearl Harbors' a sovereign nation knowing justifications were fictional. MaggieL approves. It's not about hate. It is about those who do so hate America as to keep promoting a lying president's extremist agenda.

MaggieL - pre-emption is how things adverse to all mankind are promoted. Promoting religion through politics and laws is classic anti-American. What in this president do you so love? To deflect an embarrassing question, you now attack the messenger.

George Jr listed countries he intended to fix - the axis of evil. Those remaining countries are now desperately building defensive weapons AND both are begging for negotiation - what all good nations do. Only a mental midget would proclaim with biblical confidence that he does not negotiate with evil. Only the naive could defend that logic.

No hate. The man is that defective, that dangerous, that poorly educated, that manipulated by his right wing extremist handlers, blindly believes he is doing what god has told him, undermining the national wealth and military strength of America, destroying American science, makes Americans a target of terrorists, and has earned for America a devastated international approval rating. Those are facts that apply to scumbag presidents such a Richard Nixon and George Jr. Only a person just as anti-American would support such crap.

Let's face facts, MaggieL. You love a scumbag president who does not even read his memos. Who sees enemies everywhere. Who is told, "America is under attack", does nothing for 15 minutes, then gets on a plane and does nothing to defend America all day. Or did you forget to read the 9/11 Commission report. This president is begged by Brownie to cut red tape to save the people of New Orleans. Instead this president goes to CA for a campaign fund raiser and to AZ for McCain's birthday. MaggieL says this is good? This president promotes pre-emption with religious zeal. MaggieL will support that failed agenda until Armageddon? It is the Curtis LeMay attitude. MaggieL has an extremist bias that somehow can overlook facts.

Only a fool would name his war "Mission Accomplished". Only an anti-American would let bin Laden go free. That is the mental midget. No hate. Just facts. He is that dumb as to even proclaim a world wide terror network. To proclaim what is happening in Iraq as THE most critical event in the 21st Century - and then dispatch too few troops. Troops even had to embarrass the Sec of Defense with a blunt and public question to get armored Humvees - and MaggieL approves? Only the logically naive would believe his lies. Why do you do that, MaggieL? But then one of us read his book to have opinions based on facts. The other only makes false accusations quoted above. The man spends money like a drunk - just like another lying president did during Vietnam. MaggieL has no problem with - well, MaggieL even finds torture acceptable.

Every lurker - these are damning facts. And yet that is only the short list.

It is an old Rush Limbaugh and Karl Rove technique. Attack me because MaggieL cannot defend her extremist anti-American president. We should be talking about impeachment. Better to attack tw as Rush and Karl teach. It is your Curtis LeMay attitude complete with 'attack the messenger'. Facts say those who support this lying president (in a Richard Nixon tradition) are only lying to themselves. But then we go back to those lies about WMDs. One repeatedly insisted WMDs exist. The other instead used logic to say no such evidence exists. Long time Cellar dwellers will remember those marathon exchanges five years ago. Which one of us was so honest and correct as to also compare this president to another anti-American one - Nixon? And be so bluntly honest as to make others angry at the tone of that honesty. MaggieL - you make false accusations. You get back your repeated history of blindly supporting the lies of extremists. Attacking me does not change your bias that supports a presidential liar.

I would have thought you learned when the president made you a liar about WMDs. "Fool me once, shame on you ..."

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Are you so desperate that you have to resort to spelling nitpicking and keyboard warrier tough talk now, Professor UG?

IOW, you're not in EOD. You've lost this one; now have the grace to shut the fuck up and sit down. However tough you think you are, I'm probably tougher, likely wiser, probably older and more experienced, and I spell like someone who's paying attention. I'm simply saying I'm not putting up with nonsense from you. There's no shame in that for either of us.

Turning to tw's arguments, such as they are -- they still all boil down to "I hate the Republicans to an irrational degree because they won't bow to the Communist International or something" -- he's spinning, trying with all his might to get this war with unfreedom's minions lost as soon as may be. Therefore, no one should take his advice, or believe what he tells them.