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Old 03-26-2004, 09:32 PM   #31
tw
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Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
Most builders I've known or heard about have extensively used reviews to determine which components to use.
So they are using hearsay as a replacement for engineering facts. Returning again to power supplies as example. If a power supply is undersized, then the load (computer) will damage the supply? That myth is common among such reviews.

Reality. No properly built supply is ever damaged by too much load. Moreso, all outputs from a power supply can be shorted together ... and still a power supply cannot be damaged.

I asked how many computer 'experts' even knew what a karanaugh map was. Only one knew this fundamental tool. How many computer builders know a that all power supply outputs can be shorted together - and power supply must never be damaged?

I am using something as simple as a power supply to demonstrate that we have so many computer 'experts' that don't even know basic functions. Instead they read 'urban myth' reviews from magazines. Reviews without any engineering numbers? Authors without any basic technical knowledge. Then those computer builders **feel** a computer needs a 400 or 500 watt supply becuse the reviews promote bigger supplies? Where is the technical competence so necessary to keep jobs in America?

How many of those reviews forget to mention that power supply had no overvoltage protection? Most if not all fail to mention another critical fact. OVP is essential to any acceptable power supply. And yet those reviews never mention that an essential function is missing! But again, too many computer builders read articles written by English majors rather than technical facts from the technically educated.

Most of those "feel good" reviews could have been replaced by a two page spec sheet - that reports far more about the product. Most of those reviews never even ask, let alone note, that many clone power supplies are missing essential functions. A computer
'expert' should know an undersized power supply cannot be damaged. He should know a shorted out power supply is not damaged. His review should mention an essential OVP was missing. He reads that review because he does not even have basic knowledge - does not see how technically pathetic so many reviews really are.

Just another reason why America needs less engineers every year? Just anther reason why more jobs will be outsourced?
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Old 03-29-2004, 11:00 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by tw
Reality. No properly built supply is ever damaged by too much load. Moreso, all outputs from a power supply can be shorted together ... and still a power supply cannot be damaged.
NOTE: this is not at all trying to patronize you tw. Its to show a point.

True, power supplies are designed so they don't blow, much like the power circuits in a house. However a lack of power is still a major problem. Devices consume different amounts of power at different levels of activity and having more power than neccesary is not always a bad thing. Computer manufacturers often make power supplies that are perfectly balanced with their systems to avoid overkill as well as excess cost (i.e. 300 watts worth of components=300 power supply).

It is also true that manufacturers often inflate the peak power output rating for better marketing. In practice less knowledgable people will use these numbers as a justification for purchase (most commonly: first time builders and kids who never bothered to find the true meaning of the numbers). This of course is a bad thing but the stereotype of ignorance should not be placed on all people who choose to build custom computers.

Quote:
Originally posted by tw
I am using something as simple as a power supply to demonstrate that we have so many computer 'experts' that don't even know basic functions. Instead they read 'urban myth' reviews from magazines. Reviews without any engineering numbers? Authors without any basic technical knowledge. Then those computer builders **feel** a computer needs a 400 or 500 watt supply becuse the reviews promote bigger supplies? Where is the technical competence so necessary to keep jobs in America?
Yes its true there are some poor reviews out there but its up to a competant reader to use discretion. Reviews for products provide people with something that technical knowledge can't provide: opinions from someone who is intentionally scrutenizing the product. Its also always important to know the methods the reviewer used to judge the product. If the review stresses numbers too much its obviously faulty and shoud be passed over. But to discount all reviews as poor is not good either.

If it was up to me I would look at just the manufacturers TRUE spec sheet to determine the quality of the product, but how often to we get to see these sheets? This justifies the existance of tech reviews. I don't have the capacity to scientifically test all products I'm browsing so I aid my search by reading reviews written by people who have that capacity (to certain degree that is).

When making a hardware purchase a balance of tech knowledge and review hunting is needed. Do people buy products blindly? Yes. But I don't believe these people should be used to stereotype the entire class of custom computer builders.

BACK TO OUTSOURCING:

I think part of the problem may be just how difficult it is to compete with people in non-democratic, newly industrialized nations. Many countries do not possess minimum wage laws and in countries with low employment rates people will work for anything. MBA thinking: "Well if we have the work outsourced it will cost much less and the results will be the same as work done here". This may not always be the case but when businesses are given high quality work for cheap they can't resist.

I don't believe programmers in other countries are hundreds of times smarter than us but they have shown us they can do work equivalant to us. Rather than have them competing against us why not have the work for us? This is MBA thinking.
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Old 03-30-2004, 02:37 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Razorfish
I don't believe programmers in other countries are hundreds of times smarter than us but they have shown us they can do work equivalant to us. Rather than have them competing against us why not have the work for us? This is MBA thinking.
Just another of the so many reasons why outsourcing becomes a problem. As demonstrated by PC power supply, outsourcing can be a solution to a shortage of better educated Americans. Technical knowledge of a trivial device (power supply) so missing that foreign manufacturers can use that technical naivity to sell inferior products in North America for even higher profits.

In some cases, outsourcing is directly traceable to the MBA who seeks to lower costs - since costs are only what he understands. And so, about 10 years ago, was a front page WSJ article about a CT plumbing manufacturer who moved to Mexico where the wages were only 1/5th. Two years later, he was back in CT trying to rehire his old employees - to save his company. He foolish made decisions only based upon costs.

On the other hand we also have outsourcing because equivalent educated workers cost less. This is important and desireable for world 'free market' economics to work properly.

Now where does the Democratic and Republican rhetoric properly describe why outsourcing happens? In the meantime, what about in-sourcing? At minimum, the discussion of outsourcing is irrelevant without corresponding numbers about in-sourcing. Moreso - where are the numbers? How many jobs are being outsourced verses in-sourced?

Many reasons exist for outsourcing. Does not mean outsourcing, overall, is good or bad. Does mean that political hacks are using public ignorance and emotion to promote their agenda. First symptom - they don't provide lots of boring numbers which is always a first indication that they are probably doing what Rush Limbaugh does best - lie by telling half truths.
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Old 03-30-2004, 03:01 PM   #34
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I'll add 2 things:

First of all, I worked for a dodgy computer parts importing company for a while. We provided cases and PSUs for a serious portion of the Aussie market for a while. Over time a penis-size war broke out amongst the wholesalers of PSU wattage rating. Solution was standard chinese stuff, every time a new container of the pieces of shit came in, the sticker would have a higher number. PSU was identical. We were selling 200W PSUs (i tested and checked with the factory) rated as 500W, so was everyone else. Stupid shops didn't seem to realize. It's worth checking the model number with these thing next time you buy and it isn't TopPower or someone else reputable. If the model number is something like XYZ-200, it's a 200W, all the factories do it.

These guys could churn out a PSU for around $4USD (this was a year or two ago now), pity half the safety electronics were not present (we got piles of them back, blown, didn't dent profits).

The second is that outsourcing is well known to be fraught with risks, working with Chinese businesses or anywhere in the 3rd world is a funny game, real wild-west stuff, I've had extensive experiences dealing with vietnamese political system over time, I can tell you, anything is possible. It means businesses are best working with someone who already has an established operation on the ground and being aware of these risks when they go in.

While I don't think making the inner workings of a PSU part of the school curriculum is the answer, the entire western world's education system needs a massive overhaul with much stricter and higher standards in place. The fact of the matter is there are a shitload of kids in the first world who have no right to be at a territory institution, they should be out working because they simply aren't particularly bright.
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Old 03-30-2004, 07:03 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
The second is that outsourcing is well known to be fraught with risks, working with Chinese businesses or anywhere in the 3rd world is a funny game, real wild-west stuff, I've had extensive experiences dealing with vietnamese political system over time, I can tell you, anything is possible. It means businesses are best working with someone who already has an established operation on the ground and being aware of these risks when they go in.
I just read something like this in Fortune magazine. Volkswagen outsourced their parts manufacturer to China. Not only did they have to bribe local officals to get the plant where they wanted it but they found out four years later that their plant manager had been stealing an entire car worth of parts almost every night since the beggining.

Outsourcing=lack of proper supervision. Hopefully business people will catch on to this.
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Old 03-30-2004, 10:31 PM   #36
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and you know they still probably saved money
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Old 04-05-2004, 01:22 PM   #37
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Okay, I've been pondering this for a few weeks. I'm going to throw it out here, see what the general audience thinks. (And I went through the thread looking for something similar and failed - if this was discussed already, my apologies)

For years now, we've been hearing over and over how the economy is going worldwide, the globalization of the economy, et cetera, et cetera. What struck me the most about outsourcing was how familiar it sounded. In a discussion with a friend, I finally put my finger on it - outsourcing seems akin to a 21st century version of pre-Labor America, when factory bosses could hire and fire workers at will to keep costs down without fear of repercussion.

As Razor said,
Quote:
I think part of the problem may be just how difficult it is to compete with people in non-democratic, newly industrialized nations. Many countries do not possess minimum wage laws and in countries with low employment rates people will work for anything.
I heard this and things like it and thought "Son of a bitch...white-collar scabs."

I know the concept of a programmers' union probably promotes a chuckle if not outright laughter (hell, maybe even anger), but this is the new and dominating industry, in the process of supplanting Big Industry. If you think about it, picture yourself a farmer 104-110 years ago: up before dawn seven days a week, 365 days a year, working solid from sunup to sundown - in some cases, beyond then. Now, you start hearing about these people, these factory workers in the cities who get paid to do just one or a few things over and over for a fraction of the time you put in out in the fields. To hear that they want to strike and demand better treatment, wages, benefits, so on and so forth would probably promote a chuckle if not outright laughter (hell, maybe even anger).

I could be just talking nuts of course, but every time I think of this, I can't help but see this smudge on the wall...looks like someone wrote something there...
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Old 04-05-2004, 01:48 PM   #38
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Once again, I get a bit of a chuckle.

All the white collars who bitch every time a union goes on strike suddenly have the big fat cushion pull out from under them and are subject to the same pressure as big industry and suddenly.....

If I was a laid off factory working I'd be pissing myself every time I saw another IT/White Collar layoff.
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Old 04-05-2004, 02:04 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbaccus
Okay, I've been pondering this for a few weeks. I'm going to throw it out here, see what the general audience thinks. (And I went through the thread looking for something similar and failed - if this was discussed already, my apologies)

For years now, we've been hearing over and over how the economy is going worldwide, the globalization of the economy, et cetera, et cetera. What struck me the most about outsourcing was how familiar it sounded. In a discussion with a friend, I finally put my finger on it - outsourcing seems akin to a 21st century version of pre-Labor America, when factory bosses could hire and fire workers at will to keep costs down without fear of repercussion.

...
Yeah, you bet. To me this has been such an obvious subtext to what is going on. Now that white collar jobs are beginning to go, people are finally starting to feel concerned. I was upset when this whole thing started with blue collar jobs and manufactoring years ago. I have always made it a practice to check tags and buy American whenever I possibly can. All too often, I no longer have this option, nor does any other American.

For example, this weekend I needed to go buy a new steam iron. I went down to Wally World (AMERICA'S store) and surveyed the offerings. Uncle Wally offers steam irons ranging in price from $9.00 - $40.00. I was willing to pay more even though my budget is limited, to buy an iron made anywhere but China. No such luck. EVERYTHING these days is Chinese.

People speak of the global economy with no understanding of the true impact it will have. You want a global economy, you're going to have to accept a global standard of living. Go visit Mexico or Brazil and ask yourself if that's the standard of living you want because its the one you're going to be getting. Maybe sooner than you think.
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Old 04-05-2004, 03:36 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marichiko
To me this has been such an obvious subtext to what is going on. Now that white collar jobs are beginning to go, people are finally starting to feel concerned.
You make a pretty good point here. I felt concerned when I heard that a lot of steel workers and even factory workers in my area where being laid off, but honestly, the feeling was subdued by the fact that it didn't effect me very much. This outsourcing issue really concerns me because it has a direct impact on my future as well as other people I know working in fields such as programming and IT. It bothers me that I'm currently working hard in school and facing the prospect that my once prosperous field may one day be very difficult to hold or even find a job in.

The last few comments have done a pretty good job of showing me something pretty common in human nature: We generally don't care unless it effects us directly. Sad but true.

But maybe the impact won't be as bad as I thought. Looks like to get a job in the technology field of the future you will truly have to stand out from our technology workers overseas. All people not cut out for the field will fade away and the best will be left. Hopefully business people will see the trend. Too bad I can't say the same about our fellow Americans formerly working in the manufacturing industry.
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Old 04-05-2004, 07:16 PM   #41
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Originally posted by Razorfish



But maybe the impact won't be as bad as I thought. Looks like to get a job in the technology field of the future you will truly have to stand out from our technology workers overseas. All people not cut out for the field will fade away and the best will be left. Hopefully business people will see the trend. Too bad I can't say the same about our fellow Americans formerly working in the manufacturing industry.
I hope for your sake, Razorfish, that you happen to be one of those "best and brightest" who is able to obtain employment in your field. But even if you do, your troubles, and those of our nation, will be far from over.

Look at what is happening. We are loosing our ability to be a producer nation. Whether its steel girders or good programming language, we no longer will create it. A skilled work force, once lost, can't be re-trained over night. People will have to be trained how to work in a steel manufactoring plant, people have to spend years studying to become proficient as programmers, and students will quit majoring in computer science if there are no jobs in it.

How can anyone be so naive as to believe that it is in the best interest of the US to have programming code for vital tasks be written by the Chinese? How can we think that its a good idea to have the steel girders for our bridges and buildings be made in Mexico or Taiwan? How is it in the best intersts of national security to have the electrical components for EVERYTHING made in Asia?

Even if the US were to wake up tomorrow to the terrible harm it is doing itself, it would take literally years to rebuild our capacities as a producer nation. What if we have an enemy who doesn't give us those years?

A nation that can't make steel, can't manufactor industrial items, can't produce electronic components or write good programming code is going to be a second rate nation. If you don't know something about auto mechanics, you are at the mercy of your repairman. If you can't take apart the back of your computer and put in a new drive, you are going to pay top price for upgrades. On the wages McDonald's pays, you may as well forget the whole thing. Nations are no different than people in this regard. CEO's and politicians who are making these choices won't be hurt. They've got their off-shore banking accounts safely stashed away.

It is you and I who will be standing in the breadlines (if there is any bread to be had). The work that we so much want to do will all be overseas and foreign nations, especially those of the 3rd world, have no special reason to show us any mercy.

Last edited by marichiko; 04-05-2004 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 04-05-2004, 09:18 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by marichiko
How can we think that its a good idea to have the steel girders for our bridges and buildings be made in Mexico or Taiwan? ...
A nation that can't make steel, can't manufactor industrial items, can't produce electronic components or write good programming code is going to be a second rate nation.
Steel is a perfect example of both what is wrong in some American industries and why 'buy American' only makes it worse.

The PBS show called Skyscraper followed construction of a Manhatten building from planning to occupancy. Once NYC was built on steel from Bethlehem Steel in Bethlehem PA and US Steel in Fairless Hills PA. But it was now cheaper to have the steel made in Luxembourg, shipped to Houston for cutting, then shipped to NYC; rather than to have all work done in either eastern PA town. Why? Both US Steel and Bethlehem Steel were long dominated by the MBAs. They had stifled electric arc furnaces (and so many other technologies) because that is what MBA managers do - cost controls. They kept goning to the government for protection. Skyscraper was an early 1990s building. But even in 2000s, both companies still would not use a 1964 technology. 40 years later and we still did not remove the problem.

So what did we do? We foolishly provide government protection for anti-American industries. As a result, in 2003, the George Jr administration hurt productive (patriotic) American businesses again by raising steel tarriffs. Promote the anti-free market and anti-American concept called 'Buy American'. Don't force them to eliminate THE problem. Instead punish productive Americans to save those grossly overpaid MBA mentalities who created the problem. Same people who then make those big campaign contributions.

The airlines called United, American, Delta, and US Air, etc are classic anti-Americans. So what did George Jr do? Gave them $1billion+ with no strings attached. As a result, and due to classic anti-American management, those same airlines lost $7.4billion last year. We put them on welfare which only protected the problem - the enemies of America - top management - who are also big campaign contributors.

How did we save Chrylser? We refused to protect them. As a result Chrysler removed the enemy of America. Replaced its MBA trained top management Townsend and Richardo (who did not even have a driver's license) with a car guy named Lee Iacocca. Threat of bankruptcy will only fix the real problem - and save jobs.

NYC was on the verge of bankruptcy under Mayor A Beam. In response to federal government protection, instead, the front page of the NY tabloid was "Ford to NYC Drop Dead". Pres Ford therefore saved NYC. NYC elected Ed Koch - eliminated the problem. NYC created a finance oversight board that forced city council to be fiscally responsible - ie. no more free stadiums for the Yankees, etc.

If jobs are being lost, well, that problem existed four and more years ago. Job loss is a lagging indicator of more serious problems. Problems are directly traceable to top management - the real anti-Americans. (Anti-Americans are those who stifle innovation - the only source of American jobs, growth, strength, markets, and advancement of mankind). If the problem is not removed today, then jobs must be lost four years later. The sooner we threaten those companies with bankruptcy, etc, then the sooner all American workers will be wealthier; will have jobs.

Lately, those anti-Americans found new ways to gouge themselves on America - the 'big 5' fraudulent accounting fiirms - KPMG, Aruthur Andersen, etc. And they got Republican congressman to starve the SEC for funds. Permit accounting fraud to protect top management's income and bonuses while not fixing the company's only problem. Do you think Tyco, Enron, Ivan Boseky and Waste Management did not enrich top management at your expense - and job losses?

Trying to save jobs is too little too late. If making a bad product, then buy the Chinese product. It is the only way to fix the problem in America. Alternative will only be more GM cars so bad and so expensive as to not be exportable. Patriots bought Hondas and Toyota in 1981 and therefore saved Ford Motor - kicked out the anti-American Henry Ford. Anti-Americans said "Buy American"; keep that anti-American management in power to make more inferior products.

Its called free market economics. To make American industries profitable, the consumer must always buy nothing but the best - regardless of where it is made. If not made in America, then top management (people who don't come from where the work gets done) is a major reason. Buy American only means job losses will occur later with even more devestating consequences. Attack the reason for those job losses - anti-American management who (by definintion) stifle what made America great.

The PBS show Skyscraper 10 years ago demonstrates why America no ranks top 5 (and maybe not in the top ten) in making steel.
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Old 04-05-2004, 11:28 PM   #43
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tw, you bring up some good points. I bought a Japanese car in the early 80's because Detroit's product was so inferior. I won't dispute for a moment that healthy competition is vital to ensure that companies put out good products at reasonable prices. There were any number of reasons why Japan over took Detroit in the 80's - more efficient, stream-lined production lines, more competant CEO's, workers who took pride in what they did, etc, etc. However, low end wages and government subsidies were not important factors (if they factored at all) in Japan's success.

Japan had a better product. China does not. What China has is a massive cheap labor pool, a banking system which gives its domestic industries capitalization loans for lower rates of interest, and a government which subsidizes labor expenses. This is not healthy competition. It is competition bases on unfair labor practices and government subsidies.

You can still buy an American-made car. I dare you to find an American made TV or VCR or even steam iron. This is not because China makes better products. It is because China is still, bottom line, a communist country where workers get a very small hourly wage and the government takes care of company retirement benefits and subsidizes industry loans. It is NOT free market competition.
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Old 04-06-2004, 04:54 PM   #44
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Originally posted by marichiko
You can still buy an American-made car. I dare you to find an American made TV or VCR or even steam iron.
Lets not forget where the Sony Trinitron was developed. In Philadelphia. The bean counter manager saw fast profits by selling this American creation to Japan. Who got the bonus and who got all the jobs?

Let's not forget where the VCR was developed. Ampex corporation in CA. Again, the bean counter could not understand how innovation would make a $20,000 VCR profitable at $200. So again, this anti-American sold the technology to Japan. Who got the bonus? Who got the 1 million jobs?

In the meantime, to save Zenith, et al, we created a standard for HDTV that is incompatible with the world. A standard so inferior that American HDTV cannot be received in a moving vehicle or where the antenna might receive 'ghosts' (not to be confused with Casper or surreal visions). So where is Zenith? We protected the problem. Therefore we still have no American made TVs. Protecting Zenith is classic anti-American - and why Zenith does not exist. In free market economies, either the US company dominates OR the company if full of management who meet the definition of anti-American.

China is making some damn good products. But it is the wild west as The Ecomomist (cited by Bruce in another thread) notes. For example that Honda is making good Accords in China after Renault failed in the same factory. Most every small electric motor comes out of China even before Hong Kong became part of the mainland - in part because those small motors are so reliable. Don't fall into the same mentality of 1970 Americans who would badmouth the Japanese rather than business school graduates. It only makes America a weaker and ignorant nation.

Patriots always buy the best. In makes a stronger America AND a stronger world. It also makes the world love Americans - no matter how much George Jr tries to undermine the world's admiration and friendship to Americans.
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Old 04-06-2004, 05:06 PM   #45
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Originally posted by marichiko
There were any number of reasons why Japan over took Detroit in the 80's - more efficient, stream-lined production lines, more competant CEO's, workers who took pride in what they did, etc, etc. However, low end wages and government subsidies were not important factors (if they factored at all) in Japan's success.
The primary reason why Japan dominated the automotive industry is found in just so many American innovations that were stifled by anti-Americans such as Henry Ford. William Edward Deming is a classic example of stifled American innovation. Also the Honda CVCC engine that made Honda Accord #1 in America and Honda Civic #2 was called the stratefied charge engine developed in Ford in the 1960s. A technology kept out of America why Henry Ford who neither had a driver's license nor knew anything about cars. H Ford was the classic bean counter who even refused to install a $2 part that would keep Pintos from exploding (first exploding Pinto was on a Ford test track before any Pintos were ever sold - the problem known that well in advance).

There is only one reason why Japan dominated the American car industry. 85% of all problems was directly traceable to top management - especially when none were "car guys". How did Ford go from being the worlds worst manufacturer to becoming average? Among the reasons - 48 layers of Ford management was eliminated down to 5. That's right. They solved a major problem - too many bosses. Suddenly their union problems began disappearing. They fired so many white collar bean counter workers so that innovation could happen. Cost of employees, for example, was the lie promoted by spin doctors and Rush Limbaugh's predecessors. Just that too many consumers knew unions were the problem without first learning facts. Many Americans don't even know who Deming was - but know why Japan makes the world's benchmark vehicles.
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