Thank you, America!

[Hippikos]

Now. Your wish is granted and you are on my ignore list.

Nice, that saves me a lot of time.

Can easily write this as you're not reading this. Or do you?

[glatt]

Originally Posted by yesman065

I felt that someone had to offer a different point of view other than "Everythings gonna be great" now that the Dems have control of the house and Senate.

I don't think anyone on the Cellar has said this. In fact there are many people who have specifically said this isn't the case.

[Trilby]

I suspect Hipp won't be here too often, though.

After all, he DOES have a life outside the Cellar.

I can appreciate how embarrassing it is for him to hold such a ridiculous opinion; that we vote with him in mind. He just can't address it. Too painful.

[yesman065]

Glatt - its not that it was specifically said, its just the attitudethat seems to dominate. I knew going into this that my opinion would be very unpopular with the majority, but I still haven't heard anything that would cause me to alter my opinion. It SEEMS to me that the democrats didn't really WIN seats, the Republicans LOST them. And there is a huge difference there. I don't see where the democratic candidates direction or ideas (clears throat) were the reason for them being elected. It was simply a backlash against the Republican party.
Unfortunately, many of the republicans that were not re-elected are paying the price and not the person people were aparrently voting "against." Thats a serious flaw.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by yesman065

It SEEMS to me that the democrats didn't really WIN seats, the Republicans LOST them. And there is a huge difference there. I don't see where the democratic candidates direction or ideas (clears throat) were the reason for them being elected. It was simply a backlash against the Republican party.
Unfortunately, many of the republicans that were not re-elected are paying the price and not the person people were aparrently voting "against." Thats a serious flaw.

I'd agree with most of your post. But your conclusion doesn't make sense. It's not a flaw at all. The majority of those who voted think the country was headed in the wrong direction. So they voted (some of) the bums out. Bush is now seriously hindered in pushing his agenda. Thats what the majority wanted out of this election, and that's what they are getting.

The Democrats aren't going to be able to do jack now that they have Capitol Hill. Bush will fight them at every turn, and all the moderate republicans lost their seats. It's just fiercely partisan Republicans, fiercely partisan Democrats, and a smattering or moderate Democrats left now. Gridlock.

To use a car analogy, this election was about putting the brakes on. The next election will be about a new direction, if any. Or maybe taking the brakes off again. We'll see.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by glatt

The Democrats aren't going to be able to do jack now that they have Capitol Hill. Bush will fight them at every turn, and all the moderate republicans lost their seats. It's just fiercely partisan Republicans, fiercely partisan Democrats, and a smattering or moderate Democrats left now. Gridlock.

Great and I'm supposed to be happy about that because. . . .? ? ? ? The big complaint after the 1st gulf war was that we pulled out too fast and didn't finish the job, now that we are trying to do that and germinate a democratic form of gov't into a part of the world that has known nothing other than dictatorships and tyranny for - like - ever, we should change directions and "put the brakes on." ?!?!? Thats where I differ I guess. The last thing we should be doing in this situation where we have deployed all these troops is to give them, the enemy and the rest of the world the impression that we are NOT going to finish what we started AGAIN. This election was a huge defeat for America not a political party per say, but the country as a whole. I couldn't give a rats ass about either party - its this amazing and wonderful country that I care about and this last election has made us look like a bunch of idiots with NO direction at all. Who would trust a gov't or a people that starts something and repeatedly changes after getting involed and finding that the work to be done is hard or messy or whatever. This is NOT an easy situation - it sucks, but it has to be done and we have to follow through with our, collective, word. Doesn't ANYONE else see that? Ugghh (not directed at anyone, just the situation as a whole)

[glatt]

Yup. The situation sucks. And the American public is fickle. They supported the Iraq war when it began, and now they don't.

But how long do you give it to win a war like this? And shouldn't you expect to see some progress? At some point, shouldn't you look at the lack of progress, and the fact that we don't control one square inch of Iraq outside of the airport base by Baghdad, and draw the conclusion that we aren't winning? At that point shouldn't you contemplate cutting our losses? The overwhelming majority of Iraqis now think that Iraq was better under Saddam than under the US. They all hate us, not just the insurgents. It's that bad there. We already lost the damn war. You can keep hanging on to save face and claim we haven't lost yet, but the reality is very grim. Is it worth 50 soldiers a month so we can claim we haven't lost yet?

The only way I see to get victory out of this war is to triple the number of troops. We should have done that in the first place. I don't see it happening . Neither party would support that.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

And now we have an al-Qaeda honcho audibly though not visibly pleased that there are Democrat majorities in the House and Senate, in the expectation that these will be wimpier. Kiss of death -- to be compared with getting an endorsement from the Klan.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by glatt

Yup. The situation sucks. And the American public is fickle. They supported the Iraq war when it began, and now they don't.

Is it worth 50 soldiers a month so we can claim we haven't lost yet?

The only way I see to get victory out of this war is to triple the number of troops. We should have done that in the first place.

#1 A fickle populous is why we have elected leaders. To decide upon, direct, and maintain a course of action.

#2 50,000 people die each year from traffic accidents alone. 50 a month is not very many (Although I think the actual number is more like 75 anyway)

#3 I couldn't possibly agree with you more.

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by Brianna

I suspect Hipp won't be here too often, though.

After all, he DOES have a life outside the Cellar.

I can appreciate how embarrassing it is for him to hold such a ridiculous opinion; that we vote with him in mind. He just can't address it. Too painful.

I'm starting to worry about you Brianna. You talk to people who don't exist...

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

And now we have an al-Qaeda honcho audibly though not visibly pleased that there are Democrat majorities in the House and Senate, in the expectation that these will be wimpier. Kiss of death -- to be compared with getting an endorsement from the Klan.

Aux contraire, mon ami. al-Qaeda only thrives on the WH's attention. They love the war in Iraq. You really need to pay more attention to the current events.

[tw]

Originally Posted by yesman06

#3 I couldn't possibly agree with you more.

You are making an argument long ago discussed in greater detail when the option was still viable. We had only two options: 500,000 troops in for a whole year or get out. (A previous discussion on Charlie Rose involving Holbrook and Kristol put that number at 600,000 - you may want to read that previous discussion.) Those were the only two viable options. We did neither. Military intelligence is all but concluding the first option - 500,000 troops - is no longer viable. Military intelligence six months ago concluded Anbar province is lost and cannot be won. There is so way around that fact. Too late; that 500,000 man option is expiring.

Meanwhile, that option still remains to save Afghanistan. Afghanistan is also falling. As Iraq has demonstrated, by the time most citizens appreciate a need for that option, then that option has expired. We have precious little time left to save a losing war in Afghanistan. And yes, that should be obvious to you more than a year ago. Iraq is all but lost. And defeat in Afghanistan is not far behind - if you truly grasp military principals.

Yesman06 - your conclusions are presented without underlying reasoning. For example, what is the purpose of war? If you have a solution for Iraq, then the answer is easy, simple, and obvious. What is the purpose of war?

[lookout123]

you understand that the dems are the same brand of scum and villainy as the reps, just a slightly different flavor?

The Onion gets it.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/54918

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

snip~
No I didn't vote for Bliar, as I'm not a UK citizin. And you're free to bash Bliar any time, as far as me concerns and thanks to UT and Bruce.

Me? This is UT's doing, Wolf is the maid and I'm the gardener/pool boy.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by yesman065

snip~I am not interested in getting into a pissing match with any of you here, this has started to turn very negative and personal - I am not blameless either, but I felt that someone had to offer a different point of view other than "Everythings gonna be great" now that the Dems have control of the house and Senate.

The above is just my opinion nothing more nothing less. Thank you for allowing me to vent.

You said it, so don't try to back out you candyass. Just kidding, yesman. You're absolutely 100% right.

Just because a new crew has taken over this runaway train doesn't make everything all nice nice. It's going to take a a lot of time and effort to stop this train and get it safely back to the station. Don't forget Bush is still the conductor....lord of the train.