I think my Computer is dying? - Page 3

classicman · 08-27-2010, 02:27 PM

lol - I think the cell my son just got is better than the computer I had till last week.

mbpark · 08-27-2010, 03:14 PM

UT,

I know and respect your history with Linux. You were hosting downloads of it in 1992.

However, the iPad is not a point of comparison because unless you jailbreak it, it isn't a computer, rather a companion device that needs iTunes on a PC or Mac, and it is sold/marketed as such. Jailbreaking it does make it much more useful, however, and turns it into one IMHO. One of the first app ports over from Android to it was Flash, and the rest of the compatibility needs can be met with Citrix or LogMeIn, which are two of the most popular apps out there for it.

We have an iPad at work we're using to test with Citrix. It runs our ER app under XenApp faster than the $4K Panasonic Toughbook handhelds with Intel Atom chips. And, I may add, the screen is awesome. Installing the XenApp client under Linux was an exercise in pain for me. I did get it to work, but after 2 hours and googling of multiple different sites (Citrix doesn't use the unified keystore for digital certificates in their Linux client like the Windows or Mac versions do, and manually installing certificates is not my idea of fun).

My point of comparison from my POV was getting someone like myself to switch over. At no point did I say that it could not be done, because it can be. However, it is not easy, and should not be painted as such.

All users are dependent upon applications for their primary computers so that they can use them. Unfortunately, there are many applications that can prevent users that do not want to spend a lot of time researching solutions from switching. I only gave the examples that I use during my day at work. If I were to ask the same question of other users, I would get different answers.

Presenting Linux as a "cure-all" from Evil Windows, and using loaded words to talk about Microsoft et al as a cartel only out to screw users over is the quickest way to turn average people off. People only want to use their computers. The magic use case of having Grandma check her e-mail is a simple one. Having someone do home banking is not.

Presenting Linux as something that is a magic bullet when in reality, they'll even have trouble with online banking with some banks, using remote access to work, using Blackboard for taking classes (the POS that it is, I still have to use it!), Facebook games (Zynga games run like crap under Linux), or even downloading/running a game from the Internet is not the way to go. I really tried to use OpenOffice for class, but the Powerpoints in it just wouldn't display right.

Also, all the apps don't automatically update

.

Presenting Linux as an alternative that requires some work, however, is the way to go. It's not OS X or Windows. You're going to have a steep adoption curve, even if you use Ubuntu. You still will have security issues that screw with your data, only its a different set (there are enough Linux Kernel, Firefox, Thunderbird, glibc, and application vulnerabilities out there. People in glass houses should not throw stones, and I mean you, every Linux user that crows about this "achievement" without looking at Secunia and seeing the real story that shows how vulnerable you still are). Wine will not work 100%, and will make your PC run really slow on some trivial Windows apps. People need to have the expectation that not everything will work, much the way it is with an iPod, iPad, or cell phone. However, there are communities which are geared toward using it, such as the engineering, software development, and embedded design ones. These are not your average users, and these are users that will work around those issues.

To your average user, a PC is an appliance, and you can buy parts, programs, and accessories for it at Target, Best Buy, Wal-Mart, or around the corner. With Linux, that isn't there anymore, and the expectation has to be set that the Linux programs that you pay for (Crossover Office is highly recommended) have to be purchased online, as your local computer store (unless you're in California) probably will not have them. At least Apple has their own stores, and Best Buy carries their SW too (at least the one near me in Plymouth Meeting dows).

Like any other change, be it from PC to Mac, or Mac to PC, there are trade-offs. However, in this case, it's a chasm that requires a lot of work, and the expectations for converting users need to be tempered with pragmatism.

Undertoad · 08-28-2010, 08:20 AM

My argument isn't that people should abandon Windows for Linux on what they think of as a desktop computer. Win 7 is an excellent desktop and there is little reason to switch from it.

Well, unless you're a business, such as DaimlerChrysler or Autozone, and want to avoid ridiculous licensing hassles and paying much more money for each user.

My argument is probably that, if they want or need to switch, it's now roughly as much work, learning, annoyances, etc. as Windows. Does running Windows require no work or learning or tips or effort? Please.

The big Windows advantage is that it is made of a framework and vocabulary that people are already aware of. Most people have heard of the "Control Panel" as the place where they might go to switch settings and such, and most people will not recognize Gnome's "Control Center".

Quote:

However, the iPad is not a point of comparison because unless you jailbreak it, it isn't a computer, rather a companion device that needs iTunes on a PC or Mac

Not requiring another device is not the definition of a computer.

Increasingly, all people really want is a browser, and however they get it is fine with them.

Quote:

To your average user, a PC is an appliance, and you can buy parts, programs, and accessories for it at Target, Best Buy, Wal-Mart, or around the corner.

Buying parts, programs, or accessories for it at Target, Best Buy or Walmart is not something most people do. They used to buy Turbo Tax and yes, Quickbooks -- but now, like almost all software, Turbo Tax and Quickbooks have online versions. And if you browse the dwindling software shelves at Target you will find it is almost all games (that people haven't figured out how to use Steam for yet), educational software, and add-ons for The Sims.

And a computer is increasingly an appliance, yes. But what kernel are you going to run if you build an appliance? (Everyone with a TiVo is running Linux and they don't know it...)

And if you have Powerpoint problems I feel bad for you son. I got 99 system problems but sharing stupid business slideshows nobody really wants to see ain't one. This is not part of the argument, but Powerpoint exists because public speaking is most people's #1 fear. It's a crutch, and when people stand up there and just read their slides, I get irate.

But me, I'm a ham, and a born natural. I love public speaking, being up front and delivering to the people. Slides just distract, unless they are charts/graphs and such. I don't want people looking at the screen and reading, I want them looking at me and listening.

As for free OpenOffice not being an acceptable alternative for $300 software, I would say that depends on who's buying. These days Office sales are down, and use of Google Docs is way, way up. That means if open source and/or Google Docs can't open a Powerpoint, that is now a problem for Powerpoint, and not the other way around.

Microsoft agrees; that's why they're moving to Open XML formats.

A $400 computer with $500 of Microsoft software is marginally more useful than a $400 computer with free Ubuntu. I agree with that sentiment. It's just not $500 more useful.

mbpark · 08-28-2010, 12:17 PM

UT,

I don't use PPT at work, thank god. I have to use it for class, where every professor has a PPT deck that might have something to do with the next week's quiz (I had one prof cherry-pick words to use for the quizzes). Work involves a lot of Word, Excel, and Access along with Outlook, Exchange, and Oracle Hyperion. The salespeople who come in use Powerpoint, and every last one I've met runs Windows. No OS X yet.

Powerpoint is a royal POS. However, the Open XML format is as encumbering as BIFF, with GUID references instead of straight memory dumps. It's not a solution, just Microsoft using a more modern file format because their own Office software falls down with the older formats more than I care to mention. I admit I use OpenOffice to fix corrupt Word and Excel documents.

I believe that Office sales are down for two reasons. Number one is the fact that it's some of the most pirated SW out there next to Windows itself, and doesn't (I think by design) have the draconian controls on the corporate versions that Windows 7 does. One of the slickest pieces of torrented SW I ever saw was the all in one Office disk that had Office Professional, Visio, and Project on one CD. It was better than the original, and installs more easily apparently. It also doesn't brick your PC like Windows Genuine Advantage did (that was their biggest gaffe I remember, telling 25% of their paying customers their copies were not genuine). The second reason is Google Docs, because many major universities are pushing Google due to the fact that they are giving it away for free or a very low cost (Temple University is completely on GMail for students), and because they are offering it to corporate and private customers cheaply (or free) too. The big issue with Google is privacy, which they admittedly were not prepared for, which also set them back with corporate adoption of their SW.

The version of Quickbooks Online, from what I remember, still has a ton of ActiveX dependencies for Windows, but it does run on OS X really well. It's almost like desktop software. I was able to use TurboTax online for my taxes under Linux years ago (think Red Hat 5.1 days), and it did work really well. The desktop version, which comes with a lot more features, is still huge, bloated, and restricted to OS X and Windows. Intuit will be able to get everything 100% online eventually.

The last time I walked into my local Target, they had a pretty impressive selection of software, parts, and accessories, plus a huge amount of games. Same goes for Best Buy and Walmart (though I admit the one by me in Willow Grove is unbelievably huge). There's still a lot of software that is still sold as shelfware that quietly sells millions of units a year. We're moving away from that, I agree, but if Target, Staples, or Office Depot is devoting the shelf space they are to software, someone's got to be making money from it. I've seen Antivirus, GPS software, educational software, Office add-ons, Office, specialized business software, Roxio's SW, and Print Shop more times than I care to mention, not to mention the throwaway printers that cost less than the ink which require "winprinter" drivers (like the POS HP Laserjet P1006 sitting in my house, not like the HP 1100 next to it that still works really well).

I have a huge amount of Linux devices at work when you count appliances, especially the Avocent smart PDUs, Mergepoint/DSR KVM over IP solutions, and our security appliances. Avocent calls them "firmware updates", as does Palm (WebOS is Linux), and Android. The other vendors just call them "software updates". The person who I have doing Avocent updates doesn't know the first thing about Linux, but she knows how to follow instructions to TFTP the updates to the devices.

All people want is a browser that doesn't suck and works with their stuff. Like I said before, the iDevices are getting a lot of traction, but they're still not 100%. When they are, Citrix will be selling a lot less licenses since they won't need to be delivering IE6 and IE7 to them (admittedly, many of the issues here are crap application code, I'm looking at you, Oracle).

Windows has one thing Linux does not...a huge support network, lots of For Dummies books next to the software in every major store that carries computer accessories, and lots of businesses who will help you with it. Apple has their Apple stores and Best Buy, and Linux you have to search for (Barnes & Noble, Borders, and Amazon for starters).

It's a difficult switch. It's more painful than going from Windows to OS X (which I've also done), or OS X to Windows. No more, no less. Those pesky applications always get in the way.

08-27-2010, 02:27 PM	#31
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	lol - I think the cell my son just got is better than the computer I had till last week. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

08-27-2010, 03:14 PM	#32
mbpark Lecturer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Carmel, Indiana Posts: 761	The iPad is not a computer UT, I know and respect your history with Linux. You were hosting downloads of it in 1992. However, the iPad is not a point of comparison because unless you jailbreak it, it isn't a computer, rather a companion device that needs iTunes on a PC or Mac, and it is sold/marketed as such. Jailbreaking it does make it much more useful, however, and turns it into one IMHO. One of the first app ports over from Android to it was Flash, and the rest of the compatibility needs can be met with Citrix or LogMeIn, which are two of the most popular apps out there for it. We have an iPad at work we're using to test with Citrix. It runs our ER app under XenApp faster than the $4K Panasonic Toughbook handhelds with Intel Atom chips. And, I may add, the screen is awesome. Installing the XenApp client under Linux was an exercise in pain for me. I did get it to work, but after 2 hours and googling of multiple different sites (Citrix doesn't use the unified keystore for digital certificates in their Linux client like the Windows or Mac versions do, and manually installing certificates is not my idea of fun). My point of comparison from my POV was getting someone like myself to switch over. At no point did I say that it could not be done, because it can be. However, it is not easy, and should not be painted as such. All users are dependent upon applications for their primary computers so that they can use them. Unfortunately, there are many applications that can prevent users that do not want to spend a lot of time researching solutions from switching. I only gave the examples that I use during my day at work. If I were to ask the same question of other users, I would get different answers. Presenting Linux as a "cure-all" from Evil Windows, and using loaded words to talk about Microsoft et al as a cartel only out to screw users over is the quickest way to turn average people off. People only want to use their computers. The magic use case of having Grandma check her e-mail is a simple one. Having someone do home banking is not. Presenting Linux as something that is a magic bullet when in reality, they'll even have trouble with online banking with some banks, using remote access to work, using Blackboard for taking classes (the POS that it is, I still have to use it!), Facebook games (Zynga games run like crap under Linux), or even downloading/running a game from the Internet is not the way to go. I really tried to use OpenOffice for class, but the Powerpoints in it just wouldn't display right. Also, all the apps don't automatically update . Presenting Linux as an alternative that requires some work, however, is the way to go. It's not OS X or Windows. You're going to have a steep adoption curve, even if you use Ubuntu. You still will have security issues that screw with your data, only its a different set (there are enough Linux Kernel, Firefox, Thunderbird, glibc, and application vulnerabilities out there. People in glass houses should not throw stones, and I mean you, every Linux user that crows about this "achievement" without looking at Secunia and seeing the real story that shows how vulnerable you still are). Wine will not work 100%, and will make your PC run really slow on some trivial Windows apps. People need to have the expectation that not everything will work, much the way it is with an iPod, iPad, or cell phone. However, there are communities which are geared toward using it, such as the engineering, software development, and embedded design ones. These are not your average users, and these are users that will work around those issues. To your average user, a PC is an appliance, and you can buy parts, programs, and accessories for it at Target, Best Buy, Wal-Mart, or around the corner. With Linux, that isn't there anymore, and the expectation has to be set that the Linux programs that you pay for (Crossover Office is highly recommended) have to be purchased online, as your local computer store (unless you're in California) probably will not have them. At least Apple has their own stores, and Best Buy carries their SW too (at least the one near me in Plymouth Meeting dows). Like any other change, be it from PC to Mac, or Mac to PC, there are trade-offs. However, in this case, it's a chasm that requires a lot of work, and the expectations for converting users need to be tempered with pragmatism.

08-28-2010, 12:17 PM	#34
mbpark Lecturer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Carmel, Indiana Posts: 761	UT, I don't use PPT at work, thank god. I have to use it for class, where every professor has a PPT deck that might have something to do with the next week's quiz (I had one prof cherry-pick words to use for the quizzes). Work involves a lot of Word, Excel, and Access along with Outlook, Exchange, and Oracle Hyperion. The salespeople who come in use Powerpoint, and every last one I've met runs Windows. No OS X yet. Powerpoint is a royal POS. However, the Open XML format is as encumbering as BIFF, with GUID references instead of straight memory dumps. It's not a solution, just Microsoft using a more modern file format because their own Office software falls down with the older formats more than I care to mention. I admit I use OpenOffice to fix corrupt Word and Excel documents. I believe that Office sales are down for two reasons. Number one is the fact that it's some of the most pirated SW out there next to Windows itself, and doesn't (I think by design) have the draconian controls on the corporate versions that Windows 7 does. One of the slickest pieces of torrented SW I ever saw was the all in one Office disk that had Office Professional, Visio, and Project on one CD. It was better than the original, and installs more easily apparently. It also doesn't brick your PC like Windows Genuine Advantage did (that was their biggest gaffe I remember, telling 25% of their paying customers their copies were not genuine). The second reason is Google Docs, because many major universities are pushing Google due to the fact that they are giving it away for free or a very low cost (Temple University is completely on GMail for students), and because they are offering it to corporate and private customers cheaply (or free) too. The big issue with Google is privacy, which they admittedly were not prepared for, which also set them back with corporate adoption of their SW. The version of Quickbooks Online, from what I remember, still has a ton of ActiveX dependencies for Windows, but it does run on OS X really well. It's almost like desktop software. I was able to use TurboTax online for my taxes under Linux years ago (think Red Hat 5.1 days), and it did work really well. The desktop version, which comes with a lot more features, is still huge, bloated, and restricted to OS X and Windows. Intuit will be able to get everything 100% online eventually. The last time I walked into my local Target, they had a pretty impressive selection of software, parts, and accessories, plus a huge amount of games. Same goes for Best Buy and Walmart (though I admit the one by me in Willow Grove is unbelievably huge). There's still a lot of software that is still sold as shelfware that quietly sells millions of units a year. We're moving away from that, I agree, but if Target, Staples, or Office Depot is devoting the shelf space they are to software, someone's got to be making money from it. I've seen Antivirus, GPS software, educational software, Office add-ons, Office, specialized business software, Roxio's SW, and Print Shop more times than I care to mention, not to mention the throwaway printers that cost less than the ink which require "winprinter" drivers (like the POS HP Laserjet P1006 sitting in my house, not like the HP 1100 next to it that still works really well). I have a huge amount of Linux devices at work when you count appliances, especially the Avocent smart PDUs, Mergepoint/DSR KVM over IP solutions, and our security appliances. Avocent calls them "firmware updates", as does Palm (WebOS is Linux), and Android. The other vendors just call them "software updates". The person who I have doing Avocent updates doesn't know the first thing about Linux, but she knows how to follow instructions to TFTP the updates to the devices. All people want is a browser that doesn't suck and works with their stuff. Like I said before, the iDevices are getting a lot of traction, but they're still not 100%. When they are, Citrix will be selling a lot less licenses since they won't need to be delivering IE6 and IE7 to them (admittedly, many of the issues here are crap application code, I'm looking at you, Oracle). Windows has one thing Linux does not...a huge support network, lots of For Dummies books next to the software in every major store that carries computer accessories, and lots of businesses who will help you with it. Apple has their Apple stores and Best Buy, and Linux you have to search for (Barnes & Noble, Borders, and Amazon for starters). It's a difficult switch. It's more painful than going from Windows to OS X (which I've also done), or OS X to Windows. No more, no less. Those pesky applications always get in the way.

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