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Old 07-15-2005, 08:29 AM   #196
Hobbs
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Wow! I go on vacation for a week and come back to find this thread still limping along! Egads!

I'll say two things to get myself back into this thread and into trouble.

First, organized religion is the kiss of death. Anytime you have a bunch of people who believe in something get together, you get nothing but trouble. Even if you have a group that starts out with the purest intentions, there will be inevitibly and smaller group who will disagree with the larger and break-out. Christians, muslims, budists, cultists, you name it, they got 'em. Don't get me wrong, I am a Christian who believes in what the bible teaches, but I read it for what it says, not what it should say. I don't look at chapters and verses and try to second guess and make up my own definition or meaning behind it. I don't get caught up in all the machanics of when to kneel, what to say, what to do. If you read the bible, there is nothing that really says, "go out and kill unbelivers" and I'm sure the koran is the same way.

Second, I'll say it again at the risk of sounding like a broken record...
the terrorists won't stop until they are ready to stop. Wheather through re-education, or bordem with bowing up everyone, they have to want to stop. All the raids, bombs, and operation "whatevers" will not convince them it's time to stop.
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Old 07-15-2005, 11:21 AM   #197
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Well, blowing themselves to bits doesn't seem to be a deterrent. I'm guessing it will be awhile before they weary of Jihad.
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Old 07-15-2005, 05:13 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspode
Well, blowing themselves to bits doesn't seem to be a deterrent. I'm guessing it will be awhile before they weary of Jihad.
Wearying is exactly the right word. There is a recent poll from the Pew Research Center showing that Muslim countries' support for violence is falling.

This is a good article that links to many articles on the subject.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0715/dailyUpdate.html
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Old 07-15-2005, 09:53 PM   #199
LCanal
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Interesting Theory

Friday, July 15
Another conspiracy theory

We all make assumptions. Four guys were carrying bombs that blew up. They knew each other, they had travelled together that day, twoAsians from Leeds, an Asian friend from Leeds who had moved to Luton and a West Indian guy who had recently arrived in Aylesbury.

The four men joined the Thamesmead train from Luton to London Kings Cross carrying rucksacks. They looked, said a police man who has seen CCTV footage from Kings Cross Main Hall," as though they were going on a walking holiday", smiling joking.

They split up, three to die within some 20 minutes, the fourth an eighteen year old another hour later on a bus where he was sat on the back seat upstairs.

All of them were carrying bombs that killed them.

You know that. Did they ?

Consider this news item from the Scotsman December 11th 2004.

Mohammed Hanif, 31, and Abdul Mateen, 22, from Deeplish in Rochdale were caught in Glasgow with 10kg of the drug, worth ?1 million in street deals. Hanif claimed that Mateen had driven him to Glasgow to collect ?500 owed to him for a car by another Asian. Strathclyde Police drug squad detectives, acting on a tip-off, arrested the pair and found the drugs in a car boot.The men said they knew nothing about the drugs.
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1162&id=1453462004

Drugs are a massive business, they are moved into and around the country endlessly, apparently with minimal disruption, 10Kg of heroin – (5 bags of granulated sugar) are worth ?1Mn at street level.

What do we know ?

We know the bombs went off. We know the bombers did not act alone. Somebody somewhere sent them on their deadly mission.

So someone, somewhere, wanted to send four young Asian / Muslim men with primed and timed bombs onto London Transport.

Imagine being faced with this task. You are young management graduate , student officer , war gamer, member of a revolutionary Islamic jihad movment, a member of a state sponsored security organisation in the UK, Israel, the USA ?

Think out of the box.

Say you make it your business to get alongside the unemployed, the vulnerable, rebellious, anti-authoritarian youth. “ You want some money, you want to be in on the scene”.

“Take this package, meet a man – come back ?100 cash. No questions”
“ Hire a car take this package, get a friend drive to this place, meet a man – come back collect ?500 cash ”

He doesn’t look in the bag, these guys play hard ball. Take it. Deliver it. Get paid. Go away forget the man. Forget the face. Wait for the call. Everybody does it man. Seen the barred outside doors in Beeston. Inside as well. Drugs.Drugs. Play some football, in the park , cricket in season, go to the mosque like dad wants me to.

“ Take the car, meet a man all take one of the bags deliver to these 3 places – come back collect ? 1000. Cash”

…and so on. Maybe he even fits in a trip for himself, for others to Pakistan. To go to a madrassa ? To see the BIG man in Pakistan where it all comes from, seeping out of Afghanistan. Maybe go on Haj – that costs money, but he we have it.

Soon enough your man has bought himself , like one of the bombers a brand new red Mercedes. He’s not bought a car, he’s bought prestige, he’s a man on the street – everyone knows by what method, but hey he stands his round and his famil are very generous.

...and so on.

Then eventually we have a big deal, hire the cars, drive here, meet the man, take the train , take the four underground trains, the man will meet you, back on the train, back in the car, back here - ?XXXX cash – luvvly jubbly.

Another big deal

Another

Then the BIG deal.

They’ve done this before. The bags, don’t look, don’t ask. 2 grand apiece and there’s going to be another run next week. Meet back as usual in the Starbucks near the British Library. 2 o-clock … and don’t switch your bloody phone on or use it.

But the don’t come back. One mother, anxious like mums are, is worried, her boy has been to London before, like he says, he’s never late for his mum. A good boy, he’s only young, maybe he has got in with some bad boys, been caught shoplifting but they all do it – he’ll grow out of it. Give the Police a call. It’s late. He should be in bed asleep at his age.

He is asleep. Forever.

Far fetched ? Find a fact that doesn’t fit.

Of course all sorts of people with all sorts of agendas are pointing their finger at Islamic fundamentalists – Al Quaida, Al Johnson, Al Read maybe. That’s an agenda that supports, a state of perpetual war, perpetual terror, a need for more legislation to restrict liberties, control freedoms, issue what will be (effectively) internal passports, or what we called in the days of apartheid, Pass books.

Now it’s a big jump to say that the main agents of this criminal endeavour are agents of a state – well take your pick, Israel, UK, USA or a religious grouping, Muslims, Zionists, Methodists – freelance embedded warriors in the State’s apparatus, MI6, Mossad, CIA.

It does show that there is more than one way of getting 4 young men on London Transport, whilst G8 is on, whilst President Bush is a guest in the country, to blast 50 odd travellers to their deaths. Of course you kill the couriers.

Dead men. Tell no tales.
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Old 07-16-2005, 12:33 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dar512
Anyone read the news this morning about the bombers? Sounds like three, at least, were middle-class young men that got recruited on a visit home to Pakistan. Sounds like all of these men had prospects. One was a newlywed with a daughter.

I just don't get it.
I do...They were recruited by one Bush's operatives to stir up hate for "terrorists" and try to drum up support for Blair.
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Old 07-16-2005, 12:41 AM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCanal
Another conspiracy theory
I made a similar, but much less detailed, speculation in post #161.
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Old 07-16-2005, 09:33 PM   #202
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lcanal seems right on. his system wouldn't have the problems with last minute cold feet, change of heart, etc. The cost of brainwashing someone willing to die is a lot greater than worknig within the paradigm of easy cash
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Old 07-17-2005, 04:14 AM   #203
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LCanal - doesn't fit the profile of the bombers, all radicalised by various factors, all met at a single radical mosque, one talked of martyrdom openly.
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Old 07-17-2005, 12:19 PM   #204
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Any talk of closing borders and starting deportations Jag?
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Old 07-18-2005, 05:38 PM   #205
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Wow, here's someone who has gone to the far end of "they'll hate us no matter what we'll do, so it doesn't matter what we do" mentality:

(What do we do if terrorists get a nuke and use it on the US?)
Quote:
"Well, what if you said something like -- if this happens in the United States, and we determine that it is the result of extremist, fundamentalist Muslims, you know, you could take out their holy sites," Tancredo answered.

"You're talking about bombing Mecca," Campbell said.

"Yeah," Tancredo responded.
But it's OK. He was just shootin' the breeze...
Quote:
The congressman later said he was "just throwing out some ideas" and that an "ultimate threat" might have to be met with an "ultimate response."
But hey, what would be the downside? They all hate us anyway. It's not like they'd hate us more if we bombed Mecca. They're fighting us now, and we haven't!
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Old 07-20-2005, 07:38 PM   #206
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Some years ago, one simple example was posted of how terrorism could so easily undermine most of NYC. I had asked UT to delete it after a short time because terrorism (if it really existed as Fatherland Security claims) could so easily do major damage. Why is the damage not happening? Maybe because terrorism is not (yet) the threat as hyped by so many Orange Alerts (due, in part, to information from torture) AND maybe because when the CIA sends a PDB warning of a real and immenent attack, the president now understands when someone reads it to him.

Meanwhile, the NY Times discusses what has been fairly common knowledge for years (and was part of my 'deleted' example).
Quote:
From the NY Times of 20 July 2005 Who's Watching the Underwater Tunnels?
The reasons for concern are straightforward. One vulnerability assessment after another conducted since Sept. 11, 2001, by or on behalf of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority has placed the underwater tunnels at the top of the list of critical infrastructure.

The 14 tunnels form a vital network and are the product of varied construction methods spanning decades. The tunnels link four of the city's five boroughs under three bodies of water - the East River, the Harlem River and Newtown Creek - and range in length from 650 to 5,489 feet.
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Old 07-24-2005, 07:45 AM   #207
Griff
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Jean Charles de Menezes

It looks like the British police killed a Brazilian electrician with no known connections to Islam.
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Old 07-24-2005, 03:53 PM   #208
xoxoxoBruce
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Like I said.
There was a clip on our news the other night. The cops had chased a guy in a car finally stopping him and pinning his car to a guard rail with a cruiser.
The guy goes out the passenger window, drops 15 feet to the grass, runs across the grass to a high chain link fence and climbs over it.
So now the chase starts again. They got him but tied up considerable manpower for some time.
They had a clear shot when he was climbing the fence...should have taken it.
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Old 07-24-2005, 04:33 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff
It looks like the British police killed a Brazilian electrician with no known connections to Islam.
...who was running from police, wearing an overcoat on a summer day.

I do appreciate the fact that they are looking into. When NYPD cops shot a man 41 times in 1999, before there were issues of bombings, and without any immediate danger to the public, the response was business as usual.
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Old 07-24-2005, 07:15 PM   #210
Griff
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I wonder if his work visa was expired?
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