What I've learned about men and marriage

[jinx]

Right on, Bruce. Men and women are vastly different.... it's a good thing. Of course, that's not even accounting for the fact that even among the same sex their are vast differences...

[godwulf]

I say, why can’t you accept your partner’s differences and not try to change them.

Sounds like, "Can't we all just get along?!"

Seriously, the post by jinx, in pseudo-response to mine, was really pretty dumb, and didn't seriously address my post in anything like a thoughtful way - it was just sort of the rhetorical equivilent of "Oh, yeah?".

In the brief time that I've been reading and posting here, I guess I've gotten spoiled in that most participants seem to have sufficient respect for, and confidence in, their own intellects to keep things on a slightly higher level - but I guess there's at least one in every crowd, so to speak.

I believe that I do, for the most part, recognize and respect - even if it is, on occasion, in something of a resigned manner - the differences in temperment and psychology between, for example, my wife and me, and they really don't make me angry or precipitate a fight between us...they're just a fact of life. I can recognize our differences without their becoming a point of too much contention, in other words, and I suspect that she's pretty much the same way...most of the time.

Without trying to generalize from my own experience too radically, however, I will say that when we do fight, it's usually as the result of some conflict arising out of traditional (some might say stereotypical) gender differences, such as the ones I mentioned earlier. She gets fed up because I "won't share", or am not sufficiently sensitive to her need to vent endlessly about the slightest thing...or I have the temerity to actually make a suggestion as to how to fix a problem, rather than to merely listen and express understanding and empathy.

My wife is one of the most intelligent and articulate people I've ever known; however, on those occasions when we have a really huge fight (thankfully only a couple of times a year, if that) it seems that they always begin with - and are fueled by - her anger at some 'guy' behavior that I'm exhibiting, and not the other way around.

Undoubtedly the experience of others has been different, to some extent. I'm just saying that, among the other men with whom I've discussed this, it's pretty common to just laugh about the differences a little and get on with life - it's the women in our lives who (at least in our view) tend to take those kinds of things too seriously.

I heard someone on the radio a while back, reading a list of "Things Guys Say" and "What They Really Mean"; the one that stuck in my head was "What's wrong?", which translated as "What unnecessary, self-inflicted psychological trauma are you experiencing now?" You see, fair or not, generally true or not, men do tend to think that women take things too seriously much of the time...and that would include our differences.

[wolf]

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce

I say, why can’t you accept your partner’s differences and not try to change them.

I thought you always said "Have a good divorce attorney on retainer."

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by wolf


I thought you always said "Have a good divorce attorney on retainer."

There's no such animal. I didn't start any procedings.

[jinx]

Originally posted by godwulf


Undoubtedly the experience of others has been different, to some extent. I'm just saying that, among the other men with whom I've discussed this, it's pretty common to just laugh about the differences a little and get on with life - it's the women in our lives who (at least in our view) tend to take those kinds of things too seriously.

You're a man right? You posted a 3 paragraph bitch about the things women do all wrong in our unmanlikeness. I, a woman, didn't address your thoughts seriously enough for you, apparently offending you. You were then given a solution which you paraphrased (mocked?) "Can't we all just get along?"..... but still needed to vent for 6 or 7 more paragraphs.

I call shenanigans!

[godwulf]

but still needed to vent for 6 or 7 more paragraphs.

I'm not going to waste either my time or that of anyone else on this board with some kind of a personal pissing contest with you or anybody else, jinx, so if you need to have the last word, go ahead - it will be. If you want to engage in a discussion, rather than simply attack other people for having opinions you don't like to hear, have at it.

It seems to me that in your previous posts, you might be proving one or two of my points.

If I write, in any given post, too much for your taste, it's probably because I wanted to make myself clear, and leave as little room as possible for misunderstanding - not because I "needed to vent".

The "Can't we all just get along" line was just a joke - the fact that the next line started out "Seriously..." probably tipped most people off to that.

I'm reminded of a cartoon I read once that featured a large, angry woman, standing behind a counter and shouting down at a man half her size, "This is a feminist bookstore...there IS no humor section!"

[Beestie]

I'm reminded of a cartoon I read once that featured a large, angry woman, standing behind a counter and shouting down at a man half her size, "This is a feminist bookstore...there IS no humor section!"

...which leads me to ask: what kind of man would take a job in a feminist bookstore?

[jinx]

I apologize godwulf, I didn't realize you'd take a little ribbing as a pissing contest. God knows I wouldn't want to get involved in one of those, with you having that "ability to stand" advantage and all...

[lumberjim]

Originally posted by godwulf

I'm not going to waste either my time or that of anyone else on this board with some kind of a personal pissing contest with you or anybody else, jinx, so if you need to have the last word, go ahead - it will be. If you want to engage in a discussion, rather than simply attack other people for having opinions you don't like to hear, have at it.

yet, your previous post contained this:

Seriously, the post by jinx, in pseudo-response to mine, was really pretty dumb, and didn't seriously address my post in anything like a thoughtful way - it was just sort of the rhetorical equivilent of "Oh, yeah?".

In the brief time that I've been reading and posting here, I guess I've gotten spoiled in that most participants seem to have sufficient respect for, and confidence in, their own intellects to keep things on a slightly higher level - but I guess there's at least one in every crowd, so to speak.

it seemed to me that she questioned a point in your first post, and YOU made an assumption ( a wrong one btw) that jinx is the " dummy of the bunch". YOU personally attacked HER. Just because you didn't understand her question doesn't make HER stupid.

[godwulf]

lumberjim:

it seemed to me that she questioned a point in your first post

Her "question" was this:

Where as you would prefer that a woman be simply a man who happens to have a vagina?

I made what I still believe to be a true statement about how some women seem to want men to be simply women with dicks - I didn't say "jinx wants this" or "lumberjim is one" or otherwise personalize it in any fashion.

Her response in no logical way followed what I had written, and it appeared to be saying that I must somehow be no different from those whom I was criticizing BECAUSE I was daring to criticize them. The old "I know you are, but what am I?" school of rational debate.

Now she's apologized, and I hereby do the same (Sorry, jinx!) because I appear to have been mistaken that she was serious; so maybe it's ME who doesn't have a humor section, ey? My only half-assed excuse is that I've spent so much time lately in another forum, where "I know you are, but what am I?" is considered an intellectual coup-de-grace, that I may be just a tad over-sensitive to that sort of thing. I promise that I'll try to keep my head a little better in the future.

[lumberjim]

Well, welcome to the cellar. How many t-shirts would you like?

did you get your free whale penis yet?



actually, i agree with you (to a point) about what you say about women wanting men to behave more like they do, but i know at the same time, as I'm sure you do too, if you're married, that if we WERE like women, they'd leave us for the "bad boy" type forthwith. The scene from white men can't jump where the girl tells woody that she's thirsty, and then gets mad at him cuz he goes and gets her a glass of water illustrates your point. In my estimation ( i say estimation because unless you are a woman yourself, you really can;t know what they're REALLY thinking) A woman does not wont you to BE like them, but simply to understand what it is LIKE to be like them. It's about empathy.

[Beestie]

Originally posted by lumberjim

A woman does not wont you to BE like them, but simply to understand what it is LIKE to be like them. It's about empathy.

True. But when will women learn that when a they tell a guy about their problem that 99% of men want to put on their Superman costume and leap into problem solving mode.

Men don't empathise - they fix stuff. If women want their tire changed, call a man. If they want to talk about how bummed they are that they have a flat, call another woman. Pretty simple, actually. Zebras have stripes. Leopards have spots. What's so hard about keeping that straight?

[godwulf]

lumberjim wrote:

if we WERE like women, they'd leave us for the "bad boy" type forthwith

But what if we were, like, really bad women?

But seriously...

There's probably some linkage (god, did I really use that word?) between the whole 'women like bad boys' thing and the 'women want men to be more like they are' thing, but it's confusing and I'm not really sure what it is. Maybe we're talking about two distinct groups of women here, because it's difficult to reconcile the two - at least in my head.

I know that it was thoroughly trashed by the critics and has a bad reputation, but I have always been very fond of the Ellen Degeneres movie "Mr. Wrong". Bill Pulliam plays a guy who is not only devoted to the Ellen character to the point of obssession and willing to do anything she wants him to (except to go away), he is also the original bad boy from Hell and a complete psychotic nutcase. He's like both the very empathetic ideal and the 'bad boy' ideal, blended together and carried to the farthest extreme possible, but in a funny way.

Beestie wrote:

Men don't empathise - they fix stuff. If women want their tire changed, call a man. If they want to talk about how bummed they are that they have a flat, call another woman. Pretty simple, actually. Zebras have stripes. Leopards have spots. What's so hard about keeping that straight?

Eloquently stated and 100% true.

"Oh," she said, "but I want my husband to also be my best friend and confidante." Yeah, and I want my lawnmower to play music and dispense hard lemonade...what's your point?

[lumberjim]

Originally posted by godwulf

Yeah, and I want my lawnmower to play music and dispense hard lemonade...what's your point?

THEY MAKE THOSE!!????
I WANT 2 OF THEM!

[Clodfobble]

But when will women learn that when a they tell a guy about their problem that 99% of men want to put on their Superman costume and leap into problem solving mode.

Probably around the same time that men learn that when a woman tells him about her problems that 99% of the women don't want him to put on the spandex just yet.

I believe this was the point that jinx was originally making, that simply asking "when will women learn" is a tad hypocritical since it assumes women are on the inherently "wrong" side, that they must be the only ones to change.

For the record, I tend to be a more masculine woman in this regard, and often don't get along with certain women for that exact reason godwulf was complaining about, that they tend to whine about problems that could easily be solved if they'd just get up and do it. But, I also don't get along with certain men because they tend to over-exuberantly butt into situations that are not their problem, and in addition to the unwelcome intrusion, they often do not in fact solve the problem but rather make it much worse.

Both sides are wrong, and both sides should get used to always being wrong--and then they're ready for marriage.