What makes a city prosper?

Undertoad · 06-06-2002, 11:50 AM

I could have put this in cities, I could have put this in technology, I could have put this in current events and I could have put this in politics. I put it here because it brings all those concepts together.

Salon has an excellent article today: Be Creative - Or Die.

It brings together a lot of the thinking that tw and I have posted over the years. It's an interview with an author who has just published a book of why certain cities are doing very well, while others are dying.

The name of his book is "The Rise of the Creative Class: And How It's Transforming Work, Leisure, Community and Everyday Life." It discovers a new class of creative people: scientists, engineers, tech people, artists, entertainers, musicians. In addition there is a set of creative people who are professionals and managers, lawyers, financial people, healthcare people, technicians... basically anyone who "uses their ideas and knowledge and creativity in their work." I.e., from tw's perspective, the people who throw out the books, the crusty traditions, the rules, etc. and who truly innovate.

The guy points out that Pittsburgh and Detroit should be the economic powerhouse cities. Why aren't they? Detroit has its huge manufacturing base, Pittsburgh has done everything it could do to attract technology. But it isn't working. The cities that ARE the new economic powerhouses are San Francisco, Austin, Boston. Why? Because creative bohemian types, gays, innovators move there.

"You see it with young singles who want an active night life and an active mating market, but you also see it elsewhere, like a fellow I interviewed the other day who's in a biracial gay relationship with four adopted kids, and he's saying to himself, Can I live in a city like Pittsburgh with four adopted kids in a biracial relationship?"

Cities do well because they bring creative, productive people together, and then those people are even MORE creative and productive, because they're working with other creative and productive people. Good infrastructure, <i>even good education</i> is a secondary factor.

"...we just started asking, 'How do you choose a place to live and work?' and the answers just came out: Diversity, we want a place that's diverse, where there's different kinds of people on the street. Of course a job is important, but it isn't just 'a' job: We need lots of jobs because we know now that 'a' job isn't going to last long. We want a city to be creative, we want it to be exciting, we want it to have all kinds of amenities, we want it to have outdoor sports, extreme sports, rollerblading, cycling, art scene, music scene. Then we asked, 'Do you do all that stuff?' and the answer was 'No, we just want to know it's there.'"

spinningfetus · 06-06-2002, 01:09 PM

The article is really interesting, especially because I live in one of those cities that is being left behind. Binghamton, NY was the home of IBM. (I say was because they are fleeing as fast as they can) As well as Singer Link. But there isn't any sort of social life outside the meathead packed bars. And there ain't shit for jobs anymore. It is really a sad place, a dying town. Nobody that can get out is staying, hell I don't plan on being here more than six months. I would like to get into computational linguistics but there isn't anyone doing that in the region. It sucks...

elSicomoro · 06-06-2002, 04:24 PM

Philadelphia could definitely be high up there, but our leaders seem to go about doing things ham-fistedly. Although there are a variety of reasons why people don't come here, I would say that the damned city wage tax and our transportation infrastructure are the two big dogs.

warch · 06-06-2002, 05:18 PM

Support the arts 'cause they get it started.
It's a tricky thing though. Having lived in Austin from 1989 to 1997 I saw a lot of change. Its basically an old hippie university town and by the time I left, there were a lot of artists forced to move out as the rents and cost of living skyrocketed, and booming building, poor traffic planning and sprawl. A great many artist and musicians that were there five years ago, renting out those old downtown warehouses, and starting up that co-op store have been forced to move further out of town- like Buda and Smithville, (but they'll commute to the Contential Club!)

Minneapolis gutted a major part of downtown in the 70s under the notion of urban renewal- the scars still remain. Meanwhile, artists started to take over unused warehouses(just west of the razed area) for studios,that begat coffee shops, thrift stores and cheap living space. But now those same warehouses are a hot commodity- and are being renovated into high dollar condos and working artists and musicians have had to migrate, to the North East where they've begun to kick start that old neighborhood. There has been some fantastic creative reuse of buildings- not retail, but innovative workspaces like "Open Book" which houses a publisher, book arts studio, poetry and literary center that offers classes, cafe, and bookstore as tennants.

It would be interesting to take an index of public and private support dollars for the arts and see how that plays in the mix. There is an interesting rural case in Minnesota, a little town named New York Mills, that was aging and on the slide, has invested in the arts with the help of state grants and private support, to enliven and preserve their town. Visiting artists apply to go live out in the sticks and in return, the local get a breath of diversity. They also began to host the Great American Think-off. check it out at http://www.kulcher.org

Griff · 06-06-2002, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spinningfetus
The article is really interesting, especially because I live in one of those cities that is being left behind. Binghamton, NY was the home of IBM. (I say was because they are fleeing as fast as they can) As well as Singer Link. But there isn't any sort of social life...

Hi neighbor, I've been watching Binghamtons slide from South of the border. The triple cities always seem to depend on a few large employers... Just look at housing prices, there is no demand. Your politicians screw the old business owners for the sake of new or connected business owners. If I'm not mistaken, they gave a tax break to a new liquor store on the Southside, even though Robbies (?) is right there (like the Southside needs more alcoholics). They keep bailing out hotels... annoying... Elmira had a big layoff today at Corning, the whole Southern Tier is circling the toilet bowl. You do have AA baseball and AHL hockey which is more than most towns with a sub 50k population and with everyone on unemployment attendance may go up. There is very little creativity or entrepeneurship, Watson school at Suny and BCC keep cranking out engineers and technicians for other markets. Its a damn shame, its one of the prettiest areas in the whole country but what is there for work?

elSicomoro · 06-06-2002, 06:51 PM

St. Louis started a revitalizing project...several times.

Busch Stadium and the Arch were supposed to be catalysts in revitalizing downtown in the late 60s. They helped...a little.

Laclede's Landing (an area of bars, restaurants, and clubs just north of the Arch) was supposed to be a catalyst in revitalizing downtown in the late 70s...this helped, although the fact that I-70 separates the Landing from the rest of downtown is a bit of a problem.

St. Louis Centre (a downtown mall, anchored by May Co.'s flagship store, Famous-Barr) and Union Station (our former train station, now a specialty mall with a Hilton Hotel and a movie theatre) were supposed to be catalysts in revitalizing downtown in the mid 80s. Union Station is thriving...St. Louis Centre is half-empty.

Kiel Center (now Savvis Center, and soon to probably be something else) and the Trans World Dome (now the Edward Jones Dome) were supposed to be catalysts in revitalizing downtown in the mid 90s. They actually HAVE helped in attracting more nightlife in a normally-quiet-after-7pm downtown. And the Dome is just across from the Landing, so it definitely boosts the Landing on Sunday nights.

Now, the goal apparently is to get more people to live downtown. Before the mid 90s, there were 3 apartment buildings in which to choose. Now, warehouses in the former garment district (along Washington Blvd.) have been converted into art lofts, inspiring new clubs and hot spots in the area. And yes, the prices have went through the roof.

Philadelphia, surprisingly, has a pretty decent nightlife downtown, primarily in Old City and along the Ave. of the Arts. You can hear the wind howling through the buildings west of Broad St. though.

warch · 06-06-2002, 07:25 PM

Both public and private funding and support of arts and cultural non-profits continues to be an effective strategy. I hope this publication gives even more weight to the continued debates over the necessity of the NEA and NEH. Arts get a bad "soft" rap- and they're essential. *pokes Griff* Tax dollars well spent.

Griff · 06-06-2002, 08:18 PM

Ow quit it.

Right now I'm more pissed at the farmers and Tom Ridges crowd. You artsy types are off the hook...for now.

http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/pr...rtyart.1516094

MaggieL · 06-06-2002, 08:57 PM

Oh, please. You give a politician a job reporting to POTUS and he recommends that it be made a cabinet post?

What a surprise!

"Nightwatch: Spiffy armbands, and 50 credits/week." :-)

russotto · 06-07-2002, 10:25 AM

Well, "re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" is probably a bit too harsh for this proposal. But just a bit.

If Reagan were dead, he'd be rolling over in his grave. Aren't conservatives supposed to reduce things like cabinet posts?

mhaw · 06-14-2002, 12:26 PM

well in theory yes...

well so they say but does any party of politcal thought in american politcs today really favor a smaller government... no...

even regan who triumphed reduced government had some of the largest increases in spending and scope of governmnet control...

they just campaign on the fact that they don't do it as much as everyone else...

Griff · 06-14-2002, 12:43 PM

Actually there is one completely ineffectual party but its existence and my membership in it are largely pointless.

SteveDallas · 06-14-2002, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sycamore
Philadelphia could definitely be high up there, but our leaders seem to go about doing things ham-fistedly. Although there are a variety of reasons why people don't come here, I would say that the damned city wage tax and our transportation infrastructure are the two big dogs.

What transportation infrastructure??

Are you referring to the Sure-kill expressway? Only in Philadelphia could two interstate highways cross (I-95 and I-76) without an actual interchange being constructed.

Well, look at my wife & me.. maybe we're atypical. We both work in Philadelphia so we already pay the wage tax (albeit at the slightly lower non-resident rate... whatever happened to taxation without representation??). We basically like the place, and enjoy the concerts, art-house movie theaters, etc. that you can't get in the burbs. So if we're already paying taxes, why don't we just move in? We have thought about it, but with two small kids, it just doesn't make sense because of the school issue. If it weren't for that we'd probably do it.

So I wonder... yeah, the wage tax is an issue... but I wonder if the school system isn't hurting the city even more than the wage tax is.

I read the Salon article and was struck that Philadelphia was not mentioned, either positively or negatively.

elSicomoro · 06-14-2002, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kbarger
What transportation infrastructure?? Are you referring to the Sure-kill expressway? Only in Philadelphia could two interstate highways cross (I-95 and I-76) without an actual interchange being constructed.

That, and the Tpk and 95. And the fact that it took over 30 years to build the Blue Route. And how many years to build the Vine St. Expressway? (Although, that situation was a bit different than what I understand about the Blue Route.) And the Surekill can't be expanded without blowing up a hell of a lot of rock.

Quote:

So I wonder... yeah, the wage tax is an issue... but I wonder if the school system isn't hurting the city even more than the wage tax is.

Certainly to a degree...I'm sure it scares middle-class folks from moving into the city.

You've inspired a crazy theory though...

We have these kids graduating from Penn and Drexel...fine schools that will send them off into the working world making gonzo bucks. People that make more money tend to have less children. And for those that do, they would probably make enough money to send their kid to a private school. So...you reel 'em in. I've also heard of companies that actually compensate their employees for the wage tax...a "benefit." THAT'S how ya keep 'em here in the city.

Again, only a theory. But I swear...I should have gone into marketing.

06-06-2002, 11:50 AM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	What makes a city prosper? I could have put this in cities, I could have put this in technology, I could have put this in current events and I could have put this in politics. I put it here because it brings all those concepts together. Salon has an excellent article today: Be Creative - Or Die. It brings together a lot of the thinking that tw and I have posted over the years. It's an interview with an author who has just published a book of why certain cities are doing very well, while others are dying. The name of his book is "The Rise of the Creative Class: And How It's Transforming Work, Leisure, Community and Everyday Life." It discovers a new class of creative people: scientists, engineers, tech people, artists, entertainers, musicians. In addition there is a set of creative people who are professionals and managers, lawyers, financial people, healthcare people, technicians... basically anyone who "uses their ideas and knowledge and creativity in their work." I.e., from tw's perspective, the people who throw out the books, the crusty traditions, the rules, etc. and who truly innovate. The guy points out that Pittsburgh and Detroit should be the economic powerhouse cities. Why aren't they? Detroit has its huge manufacturing base, Pittsburgh has done everything it could do to attract technology. But it isn't working. The cities that ARE the new economic powerhouses are San Francisco, Austin, Boston. Why? Because creative bohemian types, gays, innovators move there. "You see it with young singles who want an active night life and an active mating market, but you also see it elsewhere, like a fellow I interviewed the other day who's in a biracial gay relationship with four adopted kids, and he's saying to himself, Can I live in a city like Pittsburgh with four adopted kids in a biracial relationship?" Cities do well because they bring creative, productive people together, and then those people are even MORE creative and productive, because they're working with other creative and productive people. Good infrastructure, <i>even good education</i> is a secondary factor. "...we just started asking, 'How do you choose a place to live and work?' and the answers just came out: Diversity, we want a place that's diverse, where there's different kinds of people on the street. Of course a job is important, but it isn't just 'a' job: We need lots of jobs because we know now that 'a' job isn't going to last long. We want a city to be creative, we want it to be exciting, we want it to have all kinds of amenities, we want it to have outdoor sports, extreme sports, rollerblading, cycling, art scene, music scene. Then we asked, 'Do you do all that stuff?' and the answer was 'No, we just want to know it's there.'"

06-06-2002, 01:09 PM	#2
spinningfetus Major Inhabitant Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Between a rock and a hard place... Posts: 122	The article is really interesting, especially because I live in one of those cities that is being left behind. Binghamton, NY was the home of IBM. (I say was because they are fleeing as fast as they can) As well as Singer Link. But there isn't any sort of social life outside the meathead packed bars. And there ain't shit for jobs anymore. It is really a sad place, a dying town. Nobody that can get out is staying, hell I don't plan on being here more than six months. I would like to get into computational linguistics but there isn't anyone doing that in the region. It sucks... __________________ Don't turn you back on the bottle, its never turned its back on you. -Boozy the Clown

06-06-2002, 05:18 PM	#4
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Terrific article! Support the arts 'cause they get it started. It's a tricky thing though. Having lived in Austin from 1989 to 1997 I saw a lot of change. Its basically an old hippie university town and by the time I left, there were a lot of artists forced to move out as the rents and cost of living skyrocketed, and booming building, poor traffic planning and sprawl. A great many artist and musicians that were there five years ago, renting out those old downtown warehouses, and starting up that co-op store have been forced to move further out of town- like Buda and Smithville, (but they'll commute to the Contential Club!) Minneapolis gutted a major part of downtown in the 70s under the notion of urban renewal- the scars still remain. Meanwhile, artists started to take over unused warehouses(just west of the razed area) for studios,that begat coffee shops, thrift stores and cheap living space. But now those same warehouses are a hot commodity- and are being renovated into high dollar condos and working artists and musicians have had to migrate, to the North East where they've begun to kick start that old neighborhood. There has been some fantastic creative reuse of buildings- not retail, but innovative workspaces like "Open Book" which houses a publisher, book arts studio, poetry and literary center that offers classes, cafe, and bookstore as tennants. It would be interesting to take an index of public and private support dollars for the arts and see how that plays in the mix. There is an interesting rural case in Minnesota, a little town named New York Mills, that was aging and on the slide, has invested in the arts with the help of state grants and private support, to enliven and preserve their town. Visiting artists apply to go live out in the sticks and in return, the local get a breath of diversity. They also began to host the Great American Think-off. check it out at http://www.kulcher.org

06-06-2002, 08:18 PM	#8
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Ow quit it. Right now I'm more pissed at the farmers and Tom Ridges crowd. You artsy types are off the hook...for now. http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/pr...rtyart.1516094 __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

06-06-2002, 08:57 PM	#9
MaggieL in the Hour of Scampering Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Jeffersonville PA (15 mi NW of Philadelphia) Posts: 4,060	Oh, please. You give a politician a job reporting to POTUS and he recommends that it be made a cabinet post? What a surprise! "Nightwatch: Spiffy armbands, and 50 credits/week." :-) __________________ "Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..." Last edited by MaggieL; 06-06-2002 at 09:00 PM.

06-06-2002, 04:24 PM	#3
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	Philadelphia could definitely be high up there, but our leaders seem to go about doing things ham-fistedly. Although there are a variety of reasons why people don't come here, I would say that the damned city wage tax and our transportation infrastructure are the two big dogs.

06-06-2002, 06:51 PM	#6
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	St. Louis started a revitalizing project...several times. Busch Stadium and the Arch were supposed to be catalysts in revitalizing downtown in the late 60s. They helped...a little. Laclede's Landing (an area of bars, restaurants, and clubs just north of the Arch) was supposed to be a catalyst in revitalizing downtown in the late 70s...this helped, although the fact that I-70 separates the Landing from the rest of downtown is a bit of a problem. St. Louis Centre (a downtown mall, anchored by May Co.'s flagship store, Famous-Barr) and Union Station (our former train station, now a specialty mall with a Hilton Hotel and a movie theatre) were supposed to be catalysts in revitalizing downtown in the mid 80s. Union Station is thriving...St. Louis Centre is half-empty. Kiel Center (now Savvis Center, and soon to probably be something else) and the Trans World Dome (now the Edward Jones Dome) were supposed to be catalysts in revitalizing downtown in the mid 90s. They actually HAVE helped in attracting more nightlife in a normally-quiet-after-7pm downtown. And the Dome is just across from the Landing, so it definitely boosts the Landing on Sunday nights. Now, the goal apparently is to get more people to live downtown. Before the mid 90s, there were 3 apartment buildings in which to choose. Now, warehouses in the former garment district (along Washington Blvd.) have been converted into art lofts, inspiring new clubs and hot spots in the area. And yes, the prices have went through the roof. Philadelphia, surprisingly, has a pretty decent nightlife downtown, primarily in Old City and along the Ave. of the Arts. You can hear the wind howling through the buildings west of Broad St. though.

06-06-2002, 07:25 PM	#7
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Both public and private funding and support of arts and cultural non-profits continues to be an effective strategy. I hope this publication gives even more weight to the continued debates over the necessity of the NEA and NEH. Arts get a bad "soft" rap- and they're essential. pokes Griff Tax dollars well spent.

06-07-2002, 10:25 AM	#10
russotto Professor Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 1,788	Well, "re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" is probably a bit too harsh for this proposal. But just a bit. If Reagan were dead, he'd be rolling over in his grave. Aren't conservatives supposed to reduce things like cabinet posts?

06-14-2002, 12:26 PM	#11
mhaw Pithy Euphemist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Virginia and Maryland Posts: 19	well in theory yes... well so they say but does any party of politcal thought in american politcs today really favor a smaller government... no... even regan who triumphed reduced government had some of the largest increases in spending and scope of governmnet control... they just campaign on the fact that they don't do it as much as everyone else...

06-14-2002, 12:43 PM	#12
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Actually there is one completely ineffectual party but its existence and my membership in it are largely pointless. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

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