I defaulted to politics on this one, I was torn.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

The Holocaust. You can make every argument you please, but that one is the deal breaker for me. A personal god who presided over that is the devil and he gets no allegiance from me. BTW, WHOSE material? God's? On what proof, other than your belief?

Let me preface by saying the Holocaust was a horrible horrible thing and I am not trying to minimize it in any way by the following thoughts.

Throughout Jewish history, from the Flood in Genesis and wandering in Exodus through present day, when Jews turned away from God, bad things happened to them. Every single time, more than just Jews were affected. This holds true for the Holocaust as well.

The political situation in Germany was extremely unstable. The writings of Trotsky and Lenin reveal the efforts that the 'communist international' was putting into Germany. Everyone was sure that Germany was the next country to go communist.

In this climate, suddenly, small nationalist folk parties started to spring up. All of them had similar agendas on their platform: Democracy had to go to get some law and order back again. These parties claimed that it was not that Germany lost World War I; rather, the boys on the front lines had the rug pulled out from under their feet.

Who did that? Those wheelers and dealers back home - the Jews.

That's a teeny bit of the historical account of "why the Jews?".

So where is God in all of this? Nature takes its course. Some people get lucky, some get unlucky. But God seems to take a back seat.

It's so easy to feel this way about the world. But it's completely incorrect.

Firstly, on a philosophical level, if you believe God to be infinite then He cannot take a back seat. He is the active element of all that exists and all that happens. A cancer cell cannot grow without God willing it to grow.

On a relationship level, God is our father. He loves us as a father loves a child - and more so, because He works in infinites.

No loving father, were he able to prevent it, would allow his child to be left to the random happenings of this world. Any loving father who could prevent his child from sickness, accident, pain, would surely do so. The same loving father might actively cause his child pain in order to help him grow. But no father would randomly and meaninglessly allow his child to suffer.

You can believe in no God or you can believe in a pagan god. But if you are a believer in the Jewish God, you must believe that He is intimately involved in all that happens in our lives. And if what happens is cancer, then not only does He know about it, He makes it happen.

Why He makes bad things happen is the point of a different discussion that I hope to deal with in a future article. But the starting point is seeing and feeling God's direct involvement in your life. The more you see and feel Him on a day to day basis, the more you will be able to see and feel Him in times of challenge.

That's a quote by Rabbi Shaul Rosenblatt.

If Jews can get past the Holocaust, so can you.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

If Jews can get past the Holocaust, so can you.

Actually, no. Individual members of the Jewish faith may make whatever mental accomodations they feel they need to in order to reconcile a belief in a personal god along with the Holocaust.

I, however, do not. Any hypothetical supreme being is more than welcome to drop by the lab for a cup of bad coffee and a long talk in which he explains himself (or attempts to). Until such time, he'll get no belief from me.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

Actually, no. Individual members of the Jewish faith may make whatever mental accomodations they feel they need to in order to reconcile a belief in a personal god along with the Holocaust.

I, however, do not. Any hypothetical supreme being is more than welcome to drop by the lab for a cup of bad coffee and a long talk in which he explains himself (or attempts to). Until such time, he'll get no belief from me.

Why do bad things happen?

This includes the Holocaust, Tsunamis, cancer, murder, accidents, birth defects, etc etc etc.

I could get all long winded about sin and free will and choice and all that stuff, but the bottom line is this:

Bad things happen because we live in a fallen world. We had our shot at paradise and Adam and Even blew it for everyone.

God "allows" bad things to happen because it is the consequence of original sin, which was disobeying him in the first place. "If you touch that, you will be burned. See? Told you."

Some people believe that the scriptures say that the "tribulation" is going to make the Holocaust look like a walk in the park.

I'm sorry you're mad at God. That doesn't make him less real.

[wolf]

You sure the big guy wasn't pissed at the Chosen People for turning their backs on his boy?*


* If I believed in Hell (rather than Hel) I would probably be burning in it for merely offering this suggestion ...

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by wolf

You sure the big guy wasn't pissed at the Chosen People for turning their backs on his boy?*


* If I believed in Hell (rather than Hel) I would probably be burning in it for merely offering this suggestion ...

Others than the Jews met their ends - gypsies, the disabled, political prisoners, etc. So, the big guy had it in for them, too?

[wolf]

He is a jealous god, or so I hear.

[Beestie]

And if what happens is [some bad thing], then not only does He know about it, He makes it happen.

According to the Rabbi, then, God makes people do harm to others? I think not. Or, perhaps the Rabbi meant that, by failing to prevent the harm that a person intends to inflict upon another that God implicitly "made it happen." So, if I understand the Rabbi, he contends that either God makes people do bad things OR that God gave us free will but then disallows us to exercise it in a manner inconsistent with his wishes.

Since the Rabbi is a respected and learned theological scholar and I am anything but, I will assume that I do not understand his point.