Horrifying gang rape & assault on mother & son

[9th Engineer]

Working to get the criminals to be productive members of society should be the goal of prisonsand not to keep them away from society for a length of time just so they come out hating society even more than they came in.

In order for criminals to become productive members of society, they must want to do so. We can talk with them, provide counselors to give them a chance to work out issues or grudges, but unless you can get them to want it, you might as well set fire to your money. If you had to make some educated guesses about what makes a person not want to be a productive member of society, what would you say pierce?
As for the length of prison term, how would altering that affect how they view society? If a person is so delusional that doing the time for their crime makes them hate their victims even more, then we're screwed. If we don't punish them, they continue to commit crimes. If we punish them, they get out and commit worse crimes. Your only option would be to either execute them or lock them up and forget about them.

It will be much more work and there will be failures but I actually see some worth in doing this as opposed to 9th's plan.

I need to hear the answer to one main question. How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners? Are they misguided delinquents who are misguided and can be 'shown the light' of honest labor and contribution to society? Do you see them as stupid clods who never learned where to draw the line and need to be reeducated? What about people of normal intelligence who know what they're doing and see it as a lifestyle?

[glatt]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners?

I think drug abuse is the main problem the majority (or if not majority then a very large portion) have. They are drug addicts who committed crimes to support their habit. They are drug dealers who are trying to live their misguided version of the American dream. I think for many, possibly most, of the prisoners in this country, a drug rehab program is a huge part of the solution.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by glatt

I think drug abuse is the main problem the majority (or if not majority then a very large portion) have. They are drug addicts who committed crimes to support their habit. They are drug dealers who are trying to live their misguided version of the American dream. I think for many, possibly most, of the prisoners in this country, a drug rehab program is a huge part of the solution.

Yep- right on Glatt. Except, as in the case of my brother, he is disabled with a severe mental disability and he keeps getting picked up and taken to jail instead of a nuthouse where he could get treated for it. He is a severe paranoid schizophrenic. His "crimes" are benign...his handicaps are severe.
Our jails are full of addicts and mentally handicapped people or a combination thereof.
Whaddaya know...they are 10 times worse when they get out. Why? Because people like my brother weren't a damned criminal in the first place, handicapped, and sent to a hostile environment. He can't even put it together for his own defense!!! He's guilty always by reason of insanity even when he's innocent. He cannot even communicate his own innocence! Because he doesn't know what happened!!!!
The crazy guy obviously started the trouble......bullshit. He has actually been bullied, victimized, and can't even comprehend his own innocence nor voice it in some situations. Off to jail with ya- just because you are the one that's obviously broken. Has nothing to do with the events or facts....he just seems like he needs to be locked up.....I know they are thinking- he must be on some heavy shit...No...he's handicapped....


I also know a guy that was a little slow.....he kept getting picked up for over-reacting in his own defense, he wasn't so stupid that he didn't know that people were making fun of him and a lot of assholes were....instead of delivering him to a costly facility- they kept taking him to jail too.
Instead of hitting the people that were being jerks he would hit a news stand or something else out of impotent rage.....I think the people making fun of him should have gone to jail instead. Talk about baiting someone weaker until they over-react just cuz ya can. Fuck 'tards......

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

In order for criminals to become productive members of society, they must want to do so. We can talk with them, provide counselors to give them a chance to work out issues or grudges, but unless you can get them to want it, you might as well set fire to your money.

And you don't think many criminals wouldn't want to be a productive member of society if they had the chance? As Dana pointed out, you are generalizing all criminals into one group which is about as far from the truth as you can get. Some people, I actually know one person that almost did this, commit crimes out of desperation and are very moral people when they are not pushed to the edge and others turn to drug dealing because it is more profitable than working a minimum wage job. Are these people bad, no, just that they just choose a life of crime because a life without crime is not reasonable or worth it.

If you had to make some educated guesses about what makes a person not want to be a productive member of society, what would you say pierce?

Hopelessness, social environment, and that a life of crime is more reasonable and profitable for the non-anti social people. Anti-social behavior can not be changed so you have to a separate group fro that. This starts to get into the topic of how poverty affects crime levels.

As for the length of prison term, how would altering that affect how they view society?

I never said change the length of time.

If a person is so delusional that doing the time for their crime makes them hate their victims even more, then we're screwed.

It is how they are doing time, not the actual process of being punished for crimes. If you look at prisoners right now, many are turning to religious extremism as a way to make their lives worthwhile. That gives a very good insight about how criminals view their lives, hopelessness usually, and if you take away that hopelessness, things can change for the better. If you take two people that committed the same crime with the same social background prior to the criminal activity and lock them up, one with a feeling of hopelessness and one with a feeling that you can get back on your feet if you choose too when released, the outcome of the two people will most certainly be different when they are both let out. What I am proposing is to change prisons from a general feeling of hopelessness to rehabilitation so they can back on track when they leave and you have not addressed that point. Of course some people will not choose to change, but separation of those two groups should be relatively easy and those two groups can get separate punishments.

If we don't punish them, they continue to commit crimes. If we punish them, they get out and commit worse crimes. Your only option would be to either execute them or lock them up and forget about them.

You are making an assumption that those are the only two options...

I need to hear the answer to one main question. How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners? Are they misguided delinquents who are misguided and can be 'shown the light' of honest labor and contribution to society? Do you see them as stupid clods who never learned where to draw the line and need to be reeducated? What about people of normal intelligence who know what they're doing and see it as a lifestyle?

You can't clump all criminals into one group or even a majority because there probably isn't a majority. There are very smart criminals that have chosen a life a crime because it suit them best, some are stupid clots, some are anti-social (link to article on real anti-social behavior) in nature and are hopeless to reeducate, some are misguided, some are there because of accidents and so on. There should be a system to separate the ones that can be helped from the ones that can't and work on both groups separately.

The best thing we could do for the prison system would be to decriminalized illegal drugs.

[9th Engineer]

And you don't think many criminals wouldn't want to be a productive member of society if they had the chance?

Most do have the opportunity, both before they went to jail and again afterwards. I'm talking about convincing the people who have decided to turn to crime because of more money/fewer responsibilities or whatever. I'm not talking about those who no possibility of ever being part of society which are basically the ones with severe disorders that need a separate facility.

commit crimes out of desperation and are very moral people when they are not pushed to the edge

These people are not an issue at all. I'd be willing to bet that a prison system full of them would be a walk in the park to manage.

As for hopelessness, I'm not sure of the details but don't we already offer life management advise and such to inmates in all but maximum security? You can't just 'take away' someone's hopelessness with positive talk. You can offer a library and online courses to those willing to make a change in their life but that's about it.

I'd be willing to debate the issue of decriminalizing drugs from a practical perspective, but we'll need a new thread for that. I won't say where I stand on it in here to avoid a drift.

Separation is a good idea, and would go a very long way towards solving lots of problems. It's probably extremely hard to do in real life, but that's partially why I think prisons should not be built around large common areas. I have a tiny bit more on this in a different thread I think.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Most do have the opportunity, both before they went to jail and again afterwards.

An opportunity and a realistic opportunity are much different things.

I'm talking about convincing the people who have decided to turn to crime because of more money/fewer responsibilities or whatever. I'm not talking about those who no possibility of ever being part of society which are basically the ones with severe disorders that need a separate facility.

So you realize that the fault is within society and not the individual? And don't respond with that choice crap, be very careful when you judge an individual without any idea of the pressures to make the decision that he or she made.

That is one reason why my view of prisons will never be possible for a long time because one, it is more reasonable to go to a life of crime for some people than it is to follow the law and two, inner city society is a breeding group for criminal activity and that is institutionalized.

In order for my idea to reach its full potential, the two problems I have stated would have to be fixed first and that is why prisons are not my main concern right now.

As for hopelessness, I'm not sure of the details but don't we already offer life management advise and such to inmates in all but maximum security? You can't just 'take away' someone's hopelessness with positive talk. You can offer a library and online courses to those willing to make a change in their life but that's about it.

Just because you have something doesn't mean they are even close to its highest potential.

[9th Engineer]

An opportunity and a realistic opportunity are much different things.

Explain why you think most people in the prison system have no 'realistic' chance of normalcy. I originally said most, you haven't clarified further yet.

So you realize that the fault is within society and not the individual?

Hells no, absolutely not. The individual must always be responsible for his or her actions, if that were to change then I could tie the Constitution and Bill of Rights into knots three ways to sunday.

judge an individual without any idea of the pressures to make the decision that he or she made

I have no ability to empathize or to even have knowledge of a group I'm not a member of? That doesn't fly in other discussions, and it doesn't fly here either. I can empathize with a great deal of many problems people face. If I see a man charged with assault after walking in on the other man sleeping with his wife, I can empathize with the pain and rage that he was feeling.

Just because you have something doesn't mean they are even close to its highest potential.

Now we're sitting in limbo land. There's no way to pursue that unless you say why they're not effective right now. If it was because of your two previous statements then we've reached a conclusion. You say that the prison system cannot perform its ideal function until two of the largest and most embedded problems in society are fixed, and I agree with you. I believe that we can make improvements on the current system in the meantime, and I'm sure you'd probably agree to that as well.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Explain why you think most people in the prison system have no 'realistic' chance of normalcy. I originally said most, you haven't clarified further yet.

You basically have a scarlet letter to carry for the rest of your life. It is much harder to gain employment, the psychological effects of being in jail and being separated from friends and family for so long, and there are many smaller effects it has on a person. Many of the people that are in jail never had a great chance for employment opportunities in the first place and now it is even harder for them to get a job.

Hells no, absolutely not. The individual must always be responsible for his or her actions, if that were to change then I could tie the Constitution and Bill of Rights into knots three ways to sunday.

Even when it serves the individual's best interest to commit crime? I don't think you understand, or care, about the catch 22 a lot of people are in. They are fucked if they don't live a life of crime and if they don't want to live paycheck to paycheck with no stability or hope for the future, they have to break the law with extreme consequences.

I have no ability to empathize or to even have knowledge of a group I'm not a member of? That doesn't fly in other discussions, and it doesn't fly here either. I can empathize with a great deal of many problems people face. If I see a man charged with assault after walking in on the other man sleeping with his wife, I can empathize with the pain and rage that he was feeling.

Do you have any empathy for the catch 22 a lot of people are in?

Now we're sitting in limbo land. There's no way to pursue that unless you say why they're not effective right now. If it was because of your two previous statements then we've reached a conclusion. You say that the prison system cannot perform its ideal function until two of the largest and most embedded problems in society are fixed, and I agree with you. I believe that we can make improvements on the current system in the meantime, and I'm sure you'd probably agree to that as well.

Yes, I believe we can make small improvements but I'm guessing our idea of improvements are different.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

And it carries a lot of weight with the parole board.

I don't think that is the kind of religious they were thinking of because some religious books are being banned from jails.

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2007/09/12/72163315

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

snip~
If you look at prisoners right now, many are turning to religious extremism as a way to make their lives worthwhile. ~snip

And it carries a lot of weight with the parole board.