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Old 05-08-2001, 09:13 AM   #1
Undertoad
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This is a picture of the wife of actor Robert Blake; she was shot dead in a bizarre shooting on Friday.

That's not what's interesting here. What's interesting is that this image showed up on Yahoo! News, credited as having been taken by the California Department of Motor Vehicles, and being an AP photo. The caption also says that the CA DMV says her name is listed as different on her driver's license; she was going by "Bonny Lee Bakley" but her driver's license says "Bonny Lee Lewis".

I'm assuming, then, that A) the CA DMV is storing photos of folks when they get their driver's licenses; and B) giving those photos out to the wire services, along with any other personal details they see fit, and C) checking the details of celebrated people and giving those out, too.

Maybe they only do this after you're pronouced dead, or something, but to me it seems like an incredible violation of privacy. I guess the bottom line is that you really should comb your hair before going in for that picture. You never know who might see it.
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Old 05-08-2001, 09:50 AM   #2
elSicomoro
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From what I understand, some DMVs/Departments of Revenue DO sell your information for marketing purposes, as do some colleges and universities. The other thing that could have happened though is that Rob Blake showed her drivers license to the media. Sounds far-fetched, but possible.
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Old 05-10-2001, 11:34 AM   #3
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One surprising thing about it

It's actually not all that unflattering a DMV photo.
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Old 05-10-2001, 12:24 PM   #4
lisa
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Shepps

I'm assuming, then, that A) the CA DMV is storing photos of folks when they get their driver's licenses; and B) giving those photos out to the wire services, along with any other personal details they see fit, and C) checking the details of celebrated people and giving those out, too.
I can verify (A) from personal experience. I just renewed my California license via mail and they printed my picture on it. The same picture that I had taken 4 years ago. Since these pictures are being taken digitally, I must assume that they are being stored in some vast database somewhere. FYI, they also digitize your thumbprint when they take your picture -- now THAT, to be, has always been scary.
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Old 05-10-2001, 06:47 PM   #5
tw
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Re: Robert Blake's Wife/Calif DMV

Quote:
Originally posted by lisa
... I just renewed my California license via mail and they printed my picture on it. The same picture that I had taken 4 years ago. Since these pictures are being taken digitally, I must assume that they are being stored in some vast database somewhere.
The same has been done even in PA for many years now. Actually we have a big problem in this country. Anyone can pass for you because we don't have a national ID database. It makes it so easy for others to steal your identity, max out credit cards in your name, live off of your credit rating, even travel the world on a passport with your name on it. That is scary - that anyone can pass as you because we have no national ID network to protect your identity and reputation.
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Old 05-11-2001, 09:07 AM   #6
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Re: Re: Robert Blake's Wife/Calif DMV

Quote:
Originally posted by tw
Actually we have a big problem in this country. Anyone can pass for you because we don't have a national ID database. It makes it so easy for others to steal your identity, max out credit cards in your name, live off of your credit rating, even travel the world on a passport with your name on it. That is scary - that anyone can pass as you because we have no national ID network to protect your identity and reputation.
[/b]
I dunno. The thought that the government has my photo and fingerprint on file kinda scares me more than their not having it. I just don't trust the government with that information, even if they supposedly have it to "protect" me.
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Old 05-11-2001, 09:19 AM   #7
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Agreed. The reason we do not have a national ID system is that Germany does not have a national ID system. The reason Germany does not have a national ID system is that Germany under Hitler did have one. The Nazis made *very* effective use of it.

The default rebuttal is "that could not happen here, we're the greatest country on earth." This ignores that at the start of WWI, Germany was the greatest country on earth.
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Old 05-13-2001, 03:57 AM   #8
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"They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program." —George W. Bush

'nuff said about govt privicy.
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Old 05-13-2001, 03:10 PM   #9
tw
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Re: Robert Blake's Wife/Calif DMV

Quote:
Originally posted by Degrees
Agreed. The reason we do not have a national ID system is that Germany does not have a national ID system. The reason Germany does not have a national ID system is that Germany under Hitler did have one. The Nazis made *very* effective use of it.
And the reason that Europe did not use Chlorine in drinking water was that the gas poisoned so many in WWII. It we were to use that reasoning, then all science and technology would be illegal because of the atomic bomb on Japan.

The reason for not having a national ID system is based upon emotional reasonings and not upon the real world threat. The theft of personal ID is a far greater problem than the possibility of a dictator taking over the US government. A national ID system does not mean they can find you. If they wanted to do that, then they simply take all the tax records. A national ID system is a tool you use to prove who you are.

If your emotional reasoning was valid, then you would be in the street demanding an end to income tax - because the government could use that to destroy you.

BTW the Nazi example is flawed. They did not use a nationa ID system. They used the census - something we also have in this country. Here one would fear a national ID system that only has benefits for the individual and yet not fear the Census, the Federal Income Tax, Social Security, or even the phone book? That is totally illogical also known as conclusion based only upon emotional thinking. The reason we don't have a national ID system is because so many 'feel' rather than first study facts. Even Germany did not have a national ID system - they used the Census.
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Old 05-14-2001, 08:50 AM   #10
Degrees
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You are correct, they used the census. However, I fail to see how that is fundamentally different from a national ID. The point of this photograph is that 'yes, the government (in California) is storing photos of its citizens.' You have no doubt heard about all the attendee's of this last Superbowl getting a facial scan by computer - and they caught (a few) people with warrants using this system. Currently, NCIC has 40 million sets of fingerprints on file, with their goal being a search time of under 9 seconds. So what I am trying to say is: if the current government goal had a slogan, it could be a paraphrase of the Microsoft slogan: How do you want to be indentified today?

The problem with this, is that the government cannot be trusted in all cases. And control of national ID system would provide so much power that its abuse is assured. "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." What would you do, when presented with the option: pay the bribe, or be marked as an employment 'loser'? Today, kids in school are being hooked into the federal job training programs - complete with aptitude tests. So the problem with a national ID is that you have zero recourse. Identity theft can at least be fought and repaired.
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Old 05-14-2001, 09:36 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Degrees
Agreed. The reason we do not have a national ID system is that Germany does not have a national ID system. The reason Germany does not have a national ID system is that Germany under Hitler did have one. The Nazis made *very* effective use of it.

The default rebuttal is "that could not happen here, we're the greatest country on earth." This ignores that at the start of WWI, Germany was the greatest country on earth.
Before WWII, people always figured that, if there was going to be a mass outbreak of anti-Semitism in Europe, it would be in <b>France</b>, not Germany, which had always treated its Jews rather well.

A lesson to be learned?
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Old 05-14-2001, 01:01 PM   #12
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You don't have to go far to see abuse of personal information in government records. Just go back to the top of the thread.

As far as personal identity theft being a worse problem than a dictatorial government, just go back to the IotD with the numbers of people killed in the last century, and ask all those statistics whether they'd rather be identity theft victims.

Protecting your identity is in the best interests of private companies, but it's expensive. If Visa wanted to, I'm sure they could develop a thumbprint or iris-scanning device to be used at all terminals.

What's more, identity theft is only as painful as the importance of the information behind that identity. If I "steal" Michael Jordan's "identity" for long enough to have stuff bought and sent to my house on his dime, that's tough for MJ but worse for the affected merchants. MJ doesn't see any serious loss for the "theft". If I "steal" his "identity" and he has every last bit of information connected with it, as is ONLY made possible by a nationalized system, then it's trouble.

The next question is (A) whether or not you trust the government to both own and operate such a system, and (B) to only use it for the best of intentions. Even if you answer yes to (B), You can't honestly answer yes to (A) and believe that W.'s intelligence gap has serious implications for the health of the country. After all, W. is only the top elected official. Could he manage to blow international relations, systematically create an economic downturn, etc. and somehow AVOID misusing a nationalized ID system? Come on, now.

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Old 05-14-2001, 10:45 PM   #13
tw
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Re: Robert Blake's Wife/Calif DMV

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Shepps
...Protecting your identity is in the best interests of private companies, but it's expensive. If Visa wanted to, I'm sure they could develop a thumbprint or iris-scanning device to be used at all terminals.

What's more, identity theft is only as painful as the importance of the information behind that identity. If I "steal" Michael Jordan's "identity" for long enough to have stuff bought and sent to my house on his dime, that's tough for MJ but worse for the affected merchants. MJ doesn't see any serious loss for the "theft". If I "steal" his "identity" and he has every last bit of information connected with it, as is ONLY made possible by a nationalized system, then it's trouble. ...
If someone steals your identity, then it takes years before you can buy a house, take out a loan, get a credit card. The person stealing your or MJ's identity cost you and MJ more than the few lost products. Its the dirty little secret that most people fail to appreciate. The damage to your ID would take multiple years to repair. Furthermore you have no knowledge of the identity theft damage until it adversely affects your life. When do you discover the problem? Only when you close on your new house having already sold your old one. Suddenly you cannot buy the new house because of identity theft six years ago. That is how it works - and it becoming more common.

Confirming a picture does not harm anyone. IN a national ID system, the picture at the top of the page would no longer be available - only confirmantion of a face if the correct name was included. IDing a picture to a real world name is fundamental to ID protection. So far all arguements against a national ID system are based on a system where confirmations (not to be confused with information) is a threat to privacy. When did your face become hidden under a vail? When was your finger print a theft of personal property or a threat to your privacy?

The fear of a national ID system corresponds to the reason women spend so much on "age fighting creams" - we feel it must be - the facts be damned. We fear because a German census is emotionally hyped in to Nazis using a national ID system. I have contempt for those who would jump to such emotional conclusions. They even assume a national ID system means the above picture is available to everyone.

A person cannot hurt you through a national ID confirmation system. But identity theft has long term, quality of life, destructive consequences that we are only just beginning to realize.

Lets see. The government tracks license plates as cars pass through the Mexican and Canadian borders. Evil. Government cannot be trusted to track that information? And so it does nothing about stolen 2000 cars that pass out of the US every day through customs - all known to be stolen - because big government might abuse that information? Bull.

When you can cite why the picture at the top of the page has theatened anyone's life, then you can define why a national ID system is so dangerous. In the meantime while we encourage theives to steal our identities, the government still has everyones pictures ready for the same 'abuses'. Why government pictures not destroying citizen's lifes? When was the last time a picture of your face harmed your life and privacy?

If a national ID confirmation system could be abused, then your privacy is already been abused by DMVs. National ID confirmation is not a threat - just uses existing databases to protect your life and privacy. It is something we don't operate making the theft of American IDs one of the most prized possessions for all criminals worldwide. Most important - can someone please provide a logical rather than an emotional reason why a national ID system is so dangerous?

Nazism - phoooey. How about some logical reasons.
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Old 05-15-2001, 06:49 AM   #14
Griff
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So, I guess what you are saying is that I'll be safer because the government won't pick up any gentiles accidentally. I keep forgetting how benevolent governments get when nobody cares to check it.

"As an Individualist, I find the political State a consequent rather than an antecedent... The State is a variable quantity- expanding just in proportion as previous surrenders of individual sovereignty give it material. The initial cause is, however, the surrendering individual, the State being possible only after surrender. Hence the individual is the proper point of reform. As he is reformed. the State disappears of itself." Henry Appleton
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Old 05-15-2001, 11:59 AM   #15
Undertoad
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Tom, sometimes we're so in sync while at other times...

Making the world safe for someone to get a credit card (!) or even a house is not really my concern here. Let's ask the question this way: if you could put into place a system that would guarantee (ha! ha!) accurate credit history but have a 0.1% chance of being used to select you unfairly for the full arm of possible government tyranny, would you do it?

Every day, because I have too much free time, too good an internet connection, and too much interest in such things, I come across horror stories like the following:

----

A California woman lost her job, was forced into drug treatment, and lost custody of her children for three months after her newborn baby tested positive for the prescription drug Seconal, even though a doctor had provided the woman with the drug when she was in labor.

When Noel Lujan arrived at a local hospital last October to give birth to her son Daniel, a doctor prescribed the barbiturate Seconal to relax her. But he didn't tell that to hospital staff who tested the unmarried mother's baby for drugs -- and they didn't ask. After Daniel was born, Lujan was told of the test results and was not allowed to take him home. Orange County child welfare authorities assigned temporary custody of the baby and Lujan's other three young children to Lujan's parents. According to Lujan, she was allowed to stay at the house with them, but she was not permitted to feed Daniel without supervision.

Meanwhile, Lujan was forced to enter a drug treatment program, which caused her to miss so many days of work that she lost her job. She was also subjected to repeated hair and urine drug tests. "It was horrible," she told the Associated Press this week. "The whole three months they were telling me I was a drug addict, that I was in denial."

According to court records, child welfare workers did not learn that the Seconal had been prescribed until mid-January. The doctor who prescribed it claims he was notified before Lujan's children were taken away.

Lujan's children have since been returned to her custody, but she and the children's father will remain under children's services supervision until July. Michael Riley, director of Orange County's Children and Family Services agency, told the AP this week, "If this is an honest error, then we are sincerely sorry."

----

The face of pure evil, painted with good intentions and signed with the hand of bureaucracy.

You ask this woman which she would prefer to have: an accurate credit history, or her dignity, her job, her lost time, and her family.

In a free country, we don't do this to people. We don't take over their information for their own good. We don't take away their newborns and their entire family on the basis of unauthorized search. We don't take away the innocent for "re-education". Right?

You put a national ID system into place and how long will it be before it's politically expedient for bureaucracies, like the Orange County Children and Family Services Agency, to use the information therein? About five minutes?

Well, it won't be me. You put that system into place, and I will be outta here and renouncing my citizenship... in FOUR minutes.
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