1/30/2006: Caning - Page 6

Sundae · 02-01-2006, 08:50 AM

Quote:

An Acehnese man is flogged as part of his sentence for illegal gambling in the town of Bireuen, in the tsunami-hit province of Aceh, June 24, 2005. Indonesia carried out its first public canings on Friday, punishing 15 gamblers in front of a noisy crowd in tsunami-hit Aceh, the only province in the world's most populous Muslim nation to implement Islamic law. REUTERS

Obviously this is just following up on my previous post as to whether it is the gender, the crime or the punishment which people find offensive. In this case the gender and the crime have changed (okay, and the picture hardly qualifies as IOTD).

I haven't been able to find any details on the case in the OT, but it is possible - even likely - that the boyfriend also received 100 lashes.

Not all Muslim countries are grossly unfair to women and not all Muslim women are oppressed. Pakistan is a Muslim country that had a female head of state, something that the US has not managed yet.

Of course I appreciate that some nations and individuals are oppressive and violent towards women. And I accept that many of these people use their religion to justify this behaviour. But IMO it's blinkered to jump to the conclusion that this is the case worldwide and all Muslims' minds should be changed for them - by whatever means we deem necessary.

dar512 · 02-01-2006, 08:57 AM

OK. Help me get this straight once and for all. Someone who has actually read the Koran - does the Islamic religion specify this subservient role for women, or is it the culture?

joelnwil · 02-01-2006, 09:14 AM

Pakistan is a mixed bag, as shown by those who shelter Bin Laden. In the picture, activists want to tear down the sign because the face of the woman is shown.

What would they think of Dame Edna?

Sundae · 02-01-2006, 09:15 AM

I haven't read it, but have been an interested listener in discussions with people who have. I'd be interested in the opinions of anyone who has first-hand knowledge of course.

Women are required to be modest, and men are definitely the head of the household. Women whould be treated with compassion and understanding, but in general they are viewed differently to men and subject to different treatment. This should not make them second class citizens however.

Of course St Paul had some of the same views (from Ephesians 5 for example): Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

magilla · 02-01-2006, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspode

I officially volunteer to be the one that gets to whack Bush the Theocrat, then. Or am I the only one who's noticed that this is the way our government seems to be heading? Oh, wait...its alright for us to be a Theocracy since we believe in the One True God. Sorry.

Oh, and for the NSA guys who are reading this...I mean "whack" as in "to hit with a cane", as in the picture which leads off this thread. I do not mean "whack" as in to do away with in any way, shape or form.

Nope, Elspode, I am with you on this one. Bush wears the mantle of religion but seems to be one of the least "Christian" presidents I've seen. I also fear the way we seem to be heading down the theocracy trail. It boggles the mind to hear so many people howling about "taking the Christ out of Christmas" or some such nonsense, as though Christians are a persecuted minority here. Many of them seem to think that if they cannot have their religion out in public, on public property, and everyone exposed to it 24/7, that somehow infringes on their rights.

I would also point out that Bush has not had a lot to say about Islam in general. Notice how careful he is when he talks about Islamic terrorism: it is always the Fundamentalists who "twist Islam" etc. (although they are the ones blowing things up). He sure would not want to offend his cronies in Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Kuwait, or the Emirates!

Chris

chrisinhouston · 02-01-2006, 10:15 AM

Found this at the BBC archive from June 2005:

Aceh gamblers caned in public:

Fifteen people were caned for gambling offences outside a mosque in the town of Bireuen on Friday.

Aceh implemented partial Sharia law in 2001, as part of an autonomy deal offered by the Jakarta government. The province has a higher proportion of Muslims than other areas of Indonesia, and many Acehnese practice a stricter version of Islam.

The 15 men were flogged with a rattan cane on a specially-constructed stage in front of the Grand Mosque following midday prayers on Friday. Another 11 people are due to be caned at a later date.

According to reports from the scene, the event was more of a festival than a punishment exercise. According to a BBC reporter in Bireuen, Maskur Abdullah, crowds of people, including children, watched the proceedings - cheering and booing as the culprits were brought onto the stage to receive their punishments.

One of the convicted men even faced the crowd afterwards and showed told them he had felt no pain, our reporter says.

On Thursday Bireuen's district chief Mustafa Geulanggang explained why the authorities had decided to implement caning as a punishment.

"It's not about pain," he told the BBC. "The aim is to shame people and deter them from doing the same criminal acts in the future."

Kind of reminds me of old skectes and paintings of beheadings in England and France or perahps a public flogging there; all the peasants gathered around in a party like atmosphere. The sad thing is that statistically speaking, punishments like this or even the death penalty have little effect in crimes of passion or in the heat of the moment.

xoxoxoBruce · 02-01-2006, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Not all Muslim countries are grossly unfair to women and not all Muslim women are oppressed. Pakistan is a Muslim country that had a female head of state, something that the US has not managed yet.

You make that sound like a bad thing.

Aliantha · 02-01-2006, 05:50 PM

A lot of people here seem to be of the opinion that even if it's the culture to blame rather than the religion, that people from these countries should be forced somehow to change.

I suppose that's all ok except; what makes it your business? Would any of you appreciate someone comming to your country and telling you how to live your life? Would you like it now? Would you have liked it two hundred years ago when slavery was still the fashion?

When children play, how many mothers here have heard their child arguing with another but has refrained from intervening because they know that sometimes children need to sort things out for themselves?

I agree, cultures change and also that perceptions and interpretations of holy books change or are different from place to place. I don't agree that any of us can sit in our comfortable chairs and think we have a right to say how another culture/religion/country should be run. This is the 21st century. Has the western world learned nothing from past mistakes?

mitheral · 02-01-2006, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonchi

Never mind, in opening your chart I see they have him listed as the most recent cult leader. Rather strange to see the Moonies listed as Christians, though

They self identify as Christian.

Happy Monkey · 02-01-2006, 10:55 PM

Probably for marketing purposes, like the Scientologists' claim that you can still be Christian and a Scientologist.

Troubleshooter · 02-02-2006, 07:40 AM

They identify as xtian so they can donate to the republicans.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../index_np.html

Bad Moon on the rise
Overcoming his church's bizarre reputation and his own criminal record, the Rev. Sun Myung Moon has cemented ties with the Bush administration -- and gained government funding for his closest disciples.

...more...

xoxoxoBruce · 02-02-2006, 06:38 PM

Although I'm not surprized, it makes me sick.
I think this is just another example of Bush trusting the scum around him.

footfootfoot · 02-02-2006, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlandman

snip
* Christians do not commit atrocities *in the name of Christ*.

snip
That's my opinion.

Cool! then it's OK for me to bomb an abortion clinic and whack an MD who performs abortions?

Excellent!
[/sarcasm]

Aliantha · 02-02-2006, 07:29 PM

Quote:

What would they think of Dame Edna?

Would they allow Dame Edna to be in the same room with a man alone?...possums?

02-01-2006, 08:57 AM	#77
dar512 dar512 is now Pete Zicato Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago suburb Posts: 4,968	OK. Help me get this straight once and for all. Someone who has actually read the Koran - does the Islamic religion specify this subservient role for women, or is it the culture? __________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." -- Friedrich Schiller

02-01-2006, 09:14 AM	#78
joelnwil Major Inhabitant Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Silver Spring MD Posts: 128	Pakistan is a mixed bag, as shown by those who shelter Bin Laden. In the picture, activists want to tear down the sign because the face of the woman is shown. What would they think of Dame Edna? Attached Images

02-01-2006, 09:15 AM	#79
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	I haven't read it, but have been an interested listener in discussions with people who have. I'd be interested in the opinions of anyone who has first-hand knowledge of course. Women are required to be modest, and men are definitely the head of the household. Women whould be treated with compassion and understanding, but in general they are viewed differently to men and subject to different treatment. This should not make them second class citizens however. Of course St Paul had some of the same views (from Ephesians 5 for example): Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Last edited by Sundae; 02-01-2006 at 09:17 AM. Reason: Can't spell

02-01-2006, 05:50 PM	#83
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	A lot of people here seem to be of the opinion that even if it's the culture to blame rather than the religion, that people from these countries should be forced somehow to change. I suppose that's all ok except; what makes it your business? Would any of you appreciate someone comming to your country and telling you how to live your life? Would you like it now? Would you have liked it two hundred years ago when slavery was still the fashion? When children play, how many mothers here have heard their child arguing with another but has refrained from intervening because they know that sometimes children need to sort things out for themselves? I agree, cultures change and also that perceptions and interpretations of holy books change or are different from place to place. I don't agree that any of us can sit in our comfortable chairs and think we have a right to say how another culture/religion/country should be run. This is the 21st century. Has the western world learned nothing from past mistakes? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

02-01-2006, 10:55 PM	#85
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Probably for marketing purposes, like the Scientologists' claim that you can still be Christian and a Scientologist. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

02-01-2006, 10:15 AM	#81
chrisinhouston Professor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,857	Found this at the BBC archive from June 2005: Aceh gamblers caned in public: Fifteen people were caned for gambling offences outside a mosque in the town of Bireuen on Friday. Aceh implemented partial Sharia law in 2001, as part of an autonomy deal offered by the Jakarta government. The province has a higher proportion of Muslims than other areas of Indonesia, and many Acehnese practice a stricter version of Islam. The 15 men were flogged with a rattan cane on a specially-constructed stage in front of the Grand Mosque following midday prayers on Friday. Another 11 people are due to be caned at a later date. According to reports from the scene, the event was more of a festival than a punishment exercise. According to a BBC reporter in Bireuen, Maskur Abdullah, crowds of people, including children, watched the proceedings - cheering and booing as the culprits were brought onto the stage to receive their punishments. One of the convicted men even faced the crowd afterwards and showed told them he had felt no pain, our reporter says. On Thursday Bireuen's district chief Mustafa Geulanggang explained why the authorities had decided to implement caning as a punishment. "It's not about pain," he told the BBC. "The aim is to shame people and deter them from doing the same criminal acts in the future." Kind of reminds me of old skectes and paintings of beheadings in England and France or perahps a public flogging there; all the peasants gathered around in a party like atmosphere. The sad thing is that statistically speaking, punishments like this or even the death penalty have little effect in crimes of passion or in the heat of the moment.

02-02-2006, 07:40 AM	#86
Troubleshooter The urban Jane Goodall Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 3,012	They identify as xtian so they can donate to the republicans. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../index_np.html Bad Moon on the rise Overcoming his church's bizarre reputation and his own criminal record, the Rev. Sun Myung Moon has cemented ties with the Bush administration -- and gained government funding for his closest disciples. ...more... __________________ I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle

02-02-2006, 06:38 PM	#87
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Although I'm not surprized, it makes me sick. I think this is just another example of Bush trusting the scum around him. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

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