Winning - Page 2

Cloud · 02-17-2011, 10:19 PM

wow. I don't value "winning" or "competition" at all. I wouldn't teach it to my kids and I don't think I did. I value thoughtfulness, compassion, self-realization, and fairness much more, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff ranks higher too.

I'm actually pretty appalled at this philosophy that winning=success. It certainly doesn't represent success to me. However, if it's important to you, fine, teach your kids that--we all teach our kids those things that are important to us. Maybe it's a personality thing.

monster · 02-17-2011, 10:34 PM

Winning is important. Sometimes. But it's not the be-all-and-end-all. Some people have natural talent, some people acquire talent through hard work and practice. Both can be great, both can be winners -and the worker can end up being better than the natural player. But if they're pitted against each other and forced to have winner/loser labels from the get-go, how's the loser ever going to be encouraged to work and develop their talent? Both should have a chance -you never know who's going to end up on top. In my experience, the kids with natural talent often take it for granted and don't work hard enough to fulfil their potential. The ones with grit and determination often are the winners in the end. But if you call them losers before they really get to work, are they going to stick with it and give it a shot?

And, outside of sport and similar activities... most of life isn't a game. Treating it as such and trying to "win" is imbecilic/republican. Life is about being happy, loving, being loved, respecting yourself, and a zillion other wishy-washy hippie things. If you always strive to win in every aspect of life, you are really setting yourself up for failure.

Cloud · 02-17-2011, 10:43 PM

Teach your kids your values, and to be the best they can be. But whatever you do, when you have kids, do NOT make them compete against each other for your affections. Your love, support, and attention should be given to all equally, regardless of who is the "best."

In certain areas of life, as Monster said, say sports, skill competitions, etc., winning and striving to win are reasonable goals. But in every day life, people who focus on outdoing other people just because they can tend to be arrogant assholes, or at the very least neurotic and unpleasant. No one wants to be around them. They are the kind of people who would sabotage their coworkers, belittle their friends, and fight over their parents' estates to get the bigger share. Those are my opinions, and may be beyond the scope of what you are really talking about though, fresh.

monster · 02-17-2011, 10:48 PM

But if your values are that competition is good and winning is all, isn't that contradictory?

Cloud · 02-17-2011, 10:52 PM

It wouldn't be my preference. But I have no control over what other people's values are, and I think it's a given that parents pass them along whatever they are.

freshnesschronic · 02-17-2011, 10:59 PM

I'm not the most athletic, nor the most smart, nor the most successful person for my age, hardly. And it's because of my losses, second places, a countless amounts, that I want to win all the more. It takes self determination, sacrifice, hardship, but I always see the blood and tears go in it to compete for the the chance to be victorious. And if I lose? Then I chalk it up, and get ready for my next chance to try to win.

It applied to youth sports. It applied to grades in school, it applied to getting a job over the other candidates. It applies in so many areas of life that equate to success.

I would pass down the same "hard work to succeed, hard work to win" to my children, personally. It has nothing to do with not loving or sharing arrogant values, it's telling them you need to try to win because your life will be better if you compete in this dog eat dog world. That's reality for me.

Cloud · 02-17-2011, 11:05 PM

blecch. what a horrible worldview.

freshnesschronic · 02-17-2011, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud

blecch. what a horrible worldview.

Thanks for the open mindedness.

Aliantha · 02-17-2011, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud

wow. I don't value "winning" or "competition" at all. I wouldn't teach it to my kids and I don't think I did. I value thoughtfulness, compassion, self-realization, and fairness much more, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff ranks higher too.

I'm actually pretty appalled at this philosophy that winning=success. It certainly doesn't represent success to me. However, if it's important to you, fine, teach your kids that--we all teach our kids those things that are important to us. Maybe it's a personality thing.

I'm not sure if you were responding to me with this post Cloud, but I think you might have been.

I don't think that just the fact of winning means you're successful. I did say that I feel it's a really complex issue, but I try to teach my kids to try their best, and if winning is a benefit of that, then that's nice for them too. It's certainly not the be all and end all, but I think it's naive to think that our society isn't set up to have us all compete for things right throughout our lives. As fresh put it, it carries through to adulthood when we're looking for jobs which for most of us is a competition which is generally very important to try to win. Knowing you did your best doesn't put food on the table if you don't get the job.

So I guess what I'm saying is that it'd be nice to be all 'hippy' about things - and I say that with no disrespect what so ever - but the reality is that there are some things in life that we really need to win, and kids need to be taught that urgency so that they don't grow up to be useless.

monster · 02-17-2011, 11:59 PM

It does apply to grades in school. It shouldn't. This is so relevant to me now.

My daughter is just about to enter high school. She's been in a public but "alternate" program all her school life, where the main difference to regular school is emphasis on co-operative rather than competitive learning. "Open" School. You are only compared to your previous performance, not to other students. you are encouraged to revisit/strengthen what you have learned through helping/tutoring others. This school regularly gets high rankings and grades when school comparisons are made, so they are clearly not failing their students. There is an "Open" High School, entry is by lottery -this year over 400 students for 100 places. Hebe is 24th on the wait list which means she has a fair chance of getting in, so I started really researching it. It has the best ranking of all the schools in the area, is consistently top 10 in the state (out of about 800) -up against private schools who select on educational merit. What makes it so awesome? Learning is not a competition. it's a challenge and a community enterprise. It's not about being the best in school, it's about being the best that you can be.

Cloud · 02-18-2011, 12:09 AM

no, Ali, I wasn't responding to you

there's a difference here in my mind: On the one hand, there are things like doing your best, working hard, being loyal, being practical and responsible, meeting challenges, improving yourself, pushing yourself past your comfort zone to grow and learn, understanding your own strengths and weaknesses--these are all tools that lead to individual success.

On the other hand, there is a philosophy of winning is everything, beating the other person no matter what, the end justifies the means, keeping up with the Joneses. These things are what I am getting from fresh's words and tone. You can have the best grades if you cheat, rise to the top of a company by sleeping to the top and blackmail, have the biggest house and fanciest car with crushing debt--but this is not winning at life. That's really what I'm talking about.

Aliantha · 02-18-2011, 12:35 AM

I agree with all that Cloud. There are lots of different definitions of what winning is too. It just depends on the situation.

It's funny, but I didn't get the same message from fresh that you did though. I got that he's finding things pretty competitive in his life at the moment and that he's glad that he values winning (rightly or wrongly depending on your perspective). He's just starting out in life. I'll bet there are a lot of things he has to compete for.

Perry Winkle · 02-18-2011, 08:27 AM

I suggest reading The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy.

Among many other topics, it talks about setting the right goals and having the right success criteria.

To steal Cloud's words, things like winning and competition aren't opposed in any way to thoughtfulness, compassion, self-realization and that sort of thing. You can value them all. I'd go so far as to say you should.

Cloud · 02-18-2011, 08:53 AM

a very thought provoking topic, I must say

glatt · 02-18-2011, 09:31 AM

Yeah, it's not a simple answer. There are times for competition, and during those times, you want to win. But much of life is not a competition, and even though you can try to turn those parts into a competition, they don't have to be.

Driving in traffic is an area where many people turn something non-competitive into a competition. Some people view work as a competition. Maybe in their offices, it's structured that way, but it doesn't need to be. Businesses compete with one another, but employees usually don't need to. Sales may be an exception here. Academically, there is only competition when trying to get one of a limited number of slots in a school or program, but once you are in that program, the point is to learn, not to get better grades than someone else.

Competition is only needed when there is a limited resource and too many people want it.

02-17-2011, 10:19 PM	#16
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	wow. I don't value "winning" or "competition" at all. I wouldn't teach it to my kids and I don't think I did. I value thoughtfulness, compassion, self-realization, and fairness much more, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff ranks higher too. I'm actually pretty appalled at this philosophy that winning=success. It certainly doesn't represent success to me. However, if it's important to you, fine, teach your kids that--we all teach our kids those things that are important to us. Maybe it's a personality thing. __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

02-17-2011, 10:34 PM	#17
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	Winning is important. Sometimes. But it's not the be-all-and-end-all. Some people have natural talent, some people acquire talent through hard work and practice. Both can be great, both can be winners -and the worker can end up being better than the natural player. But if they're pitted against each other and forced to have winner/loser labels from the get-go, how's the loser ever going to be encouraged to work and develop their talent? Both should have a chance -you never know who's going to end up on top. In my experience, the kids with natural talent often take it for granted and don't work hard enough to fulfil their potential. The ones with grit and determination often are the winners in the end. But if you call them losers before they really get to work, are they going to stick with it and give it a shot? And, outside of sport and similar activities... most of life isn't a game. Treating it as such and trying to "win" is imbecilic/republican. Life is about being happy, loving, being loved, respecting yourself, and a zillion other wishy-washy hippie things. If you always strive to win in every aspect of life, you are really setting yourself up for failure. __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

02-17-2011, 10:43 PM	#18
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	Teach your kids your values, and to be the best they can be. But whatever you do, when you have kids, do NOT make them compete against each other for your affections. Your love, support, and attention should be given to all equally, regardless of who is the "best." In certain areas of life, as Monster said, say sports, skill competitions, etc., winning and striving to win are reasonable goals. But in every day life, people who focus on outdoing other people just because they can tend to be arrogant assholes, or at the very least neurotic and unpleasant. No one wants to be around them. They are the kind of people who would sabotage their coworkers, belittle their friends, and fight over their parents' estates to get the bigger share. Those are my opinions, and may be beyond the scope of what you are really talking about though, fresh. __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!" Last edited by Cloud; 02-17-2011 at 10:50 PM.

02-17-2011, 10:48 PM	#19
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	But if your values are that competition is good and winning is all, isn't that contradictory? __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

02-17-2011, 10:52 PM	#20
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	It wouldn't be my preference. But I have no control over what other people's values are, and I think it's a given that parents pass them along whatever they are. __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

02-17-2011, 10:59 PM	#21
freshnesschronic Professor Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,555	I'm not the most athletic, nor the most smart, nor the most successful person for my age, hardly. And it's because of my losses, second places, a countless amounts, that I want to win all the more. It takes self determination, sacrifice, hardship, but I always see the blood and tears go in it to compete for the the chance to be victorious. And if I lose? Then I chalk it up, and get ready for my next chance to try to win. It applied to youth sports. It applied to grades in school, it applied to getting a job over the other candidates. It applies in so many areas of life that equate to success. I would pass down the same "hard work to succeed, hard work to win" to my children, personally. It has nothing to do with not loving or sharing arrogant values, it's telling them you need to try to win because your life will be better if you compete in this dog eat dog world. That's reality for me.

02-17-2011, 11:05 PM	#22
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	blecch. what a horrible worldview. __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

02-17-2011, 11:59 PM	#25
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	It does apply to grades in school. It shouldn't. This is so relevant to me now. My daughter is just about to enter high school. She's been in a public but "alternate" program all her school life, where the main difference to regular school is emphasis on co-operative rather than competitive learning. "Open" School. You are only compared to your previous performance, not to other students. you are encouraged to revisit/strengthen what you have learned through helping/tutoring others. This school regularly gets high rankings and grades when school comparisons are made, so they are clearly not failing their students. There is an "Open" High School, entry is by lottery -this year over 400 students for 100 places. Hebe is 24th on the wait list which means she has a fair chance of getting in, so I started really researching it. It has the best ranking of all the schools in the area, is consistently top 10 in the state (out of about 800) -up against private schools who select on educational merit. What makes it so awesome? Learning is not a competition. it's a challenge and a community enterprise. It's not about being the best in school, it's about being the best that you can be. __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

02-18-2011, 12:09 AM	#26
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	no, Ali, I wasn't responding to you there's a difference here in my mind: On the one hand, there are things like doing your best, working hard, being loyal, being practical and responsible, meeting challenges, improving yourself, pushing yourself past your comfort zone to grow and learn, understanding your own strengths and weaknesses--these are all tools that lead to individual success. On the other hand, there is a philosophy of winning is everything, beating the other person no matter what, the end justifies the means, keeping up with the Joneses. These things are what I am getting from fresh's words and tone. You can have the best grades if you cheat, rise to the top of a company by sleeping to the top and blackmail, have the biggest house and fanciest car with crushing debt--but this is not winning at life. That's really what I'm talking about. __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

02-18-2011, 12:35 AM	#27
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	I agree with all that Cloud. There are lots of different definitions of what winning is too. It just depends on the situation. It's funny, but I didn't get the same message from fresh that you did though. I got that he's finding things pretty competitive in his life at the moment and that he's glad that he values winning (rightly or wrongly depending on your perspective). He's just starting out in life. I'll bet there are a lot of things he has to compete for. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

02-18-2011, 08:27 AM	#28
Perry Winkle Esnohplad Semaj Ton Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: A little south of sanity Posts: 2,259	I suggest reading The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy. Among many other topics, it talks about setting the right goals and having the right success criteria. To steal Cloud's words, things like winning and competition aren't opposed in any way to thoughtfulness, compassion, self-realization and that sort of thing. You can value them all. I'd go so far as to say you should.

02-18-2011, 08:53 AM	#29
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	a very thought provoking topic, I must say __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

02-18-2011, 09:31 AM	#30
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	Yeah, it's not a simple answer. There are times for competition, and during those times, you want to win. But much of life is not a competition, and even though you can try to turn those parts into a competition, they don't have to be. Driving in traffic is an area where many people turn something non-competitive into a competition. Some people view work as a competition. Maybe in their offices, it's structured that way, but it doesn't need to be. Businesses compete with one another, but employees usually don't need to. Sales may be an exception here. Academically, there is only competition when trying to get one of a limited number of slots in a school or program, but once you are in that program, the point is to learn, not to get better grades than someone else. Competition is only needed when there is a limited resource and too many people want it.

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