This is MY America!

Flint · 05-30-2007, 01:44 PM

Who can truly say this?

The original Americans were obviously Native Americans. Next, the Spanish arrived with African slaves. The slaves revolted and the Spanish left. The Africans stayed, making them the first non-native Americans. Next, the Spanish came back to stay, making them the second non-native Americans. Spanish and Native peoples mixed, making Hispanic peoples the third non-native Americans. Next, the Dutch made settlements here, as the fourth non-native Americans. Many years later, the British came and established settlements, as the fifth non-native Americans.

If you want to get technical, the Native-Americans (and to a lesser degree: Africans, Spanish, Hispanic, Dutch) should be the ones asking whether British descendants should be allowed to stay and work here. It's especially ridiculous to people living in Texas, which is technically a part of Mexico.

History is written by the victors; and revisionist history by the victors descendants. Eurocentricism is so pervasive, it's transparent.

nitro1364 · 05-30-2007, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

If you want to get technical,

i don't

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

the Native-Americans (and to a lesser degree: Africans, Spanish, Hispanic, Dutch) should be the ones asking whether British descendants should be allowed to stay and work here. It's especially ridiculous to people living in Texas, which is technically a part of Mexico.

no it's not

just abt every country on the planet has it's boundaries decided thru conflict

05-30-2007, 03:25 PM

first thing that I want to say is that I AM NOT here to sell anyone anything. I think that it is quite RUDE that my previous membership was cancelled for absolutely no reason whatsoever. It just said, "sell it somewhere else." Another user asked me if I joined the cellar to get more traffic into my Haiti group, I said, "No, but if people want to join that is ok also." Maybe I don't fit into the "click" that they want in here.

nitro1364 · 05-30-2007, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesdalphonse1

first thing that I want to say is that I AM NOT here to sell anyone anything. I think that it is quite RUDE that my previous membership was cancelled for absolutely no reason whatsoever. It just said, "sell it somewhere else." Another user asked me if I joined the cellar to get more traffic into my Haiti group, I said, "No, but if people want to join that is ok also." Maybe I don't fit into the "click" that they want in here.

glatt · 05-30-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesdalphonse1

Another user asked me if I joined the cellar to get more traffic into my Haiti group, I said, "No, but if people want to join that is ok also." Maybe I don't fit into the "click" that they want in here.

I was the one who asked you that last week, but never saw your response anywhere. There was none in the thread where I asked that question.

Your post today about the Yoko One CD looked a lot to me like SPAM, so I don't blame the moderators for banning you.

Welcome to the Cellar. What are your interests, besides promoting tourism to Haiti and also promoting CDs?

lizzymahoney · 05-30-2007, 04:24 PM

Flint, there are some historians who contend the Vikings left more here than a few outbuildings. Farley Mowat, love him or hate him, in The Farfarers sets up a convincing argument that Viking blood lines are spread all over the North Atlantic along with Albans, Celts and Picts. Some Paleo-Inuit sites have skulls that are more Euro than Inuit.

It's an interesting topic. Essentially I agree with your point about history being rewritten by the victors, probably many times over.

I don't think any of us can claim a birthright of this land. The Seminoles in my state are rather like the Zulu in that they did not exist before, what, 1800 or later. Some will tell you that Seminoles are Creek descendants with black runaway slaves and white deserters mixed in. I don't think it matters much anymore. It might have been a point of distinction at one time, but they are what they are now, not 150 years ago.

Two of my grandparents were the Canadian born children of Irish immigrants fleeing the potato famines. I may have an interest in the history and the culture, but it's not personal at this remove. If Mowat and others are right, I must have Alban, Norse, and Pict mixed in with the Celt. And descended from a sea faring country that was visited by other cultures, I probably could claim some Moorish blood as well.

lizzymahoney is my nom, not my heraldic shield.

Flint · 05-30-2007, 04:31 PM

Looking at it that way, I should have said the Vikings were first genetically assimilated, followed by the Africans slaves of the Spanish and shortly thereafter by the Spanish themselves. The French got in there somewhere, as well. But it was the Spanish who managed to implant their culture more effectively; the French (and presumably the Vikings as well) sort of melted into the Native pot. Along the way, there were plenty of isolated tri-racial communities (and not-so-isolated as you mentioned), and the very idea of a "frontier line" ignores the cultural engagement zone. Also, the reason British didn't get in the mix more often was that the colonies enacted harsh draconian policies to prevent their own people from defecting.

Blah blah blah we all get the point. The persecution of "aliens" we're undertaking now is tragically ironic. Hispanic people pre-date us on this continent by hundreds of years, and carry in them the blood of the original Americans. It won't change a thing, but that's the facts.

Flint · 05-30-2007, 04:08 PM

I designed this thread as a shit-magnet, but I didn't know the Thread Drift would set in so quick!

The irony is: Haiti. The native people of Haiti were the first people to be enslaved and wiped out by . . . who else? Our hero: Christopher Columbus! He was so effective at sucking the life and wealth out of this "new land" that his methods became the industry standard. The same methods that were later to be admired and emulated by . . . guess who? Hitler! There, I've done it! I've invoked Hitler!

Soon this thread will collapse upon itself and drag us all into a hellish netherworld...

xoxoxoBruce · 05-30-2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

I designed this thread as a shit-magnet, ~snip

Say it ain't so Flint, say it ain't so.

Quote:

The persecution of "aliens" we're undertaking now is tragically ironic. Hispanic people pre-date us on this continent by hundreds of years, and carry in them the blood of the original Americans.

So what? Lineage is not the point. Who cares who anyone's ancestors are?
ILLEGAL aliens are the point and making them abide by the rules is hardly persecution.

nitro1364 · 05-31-2007, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Say it ain't so Flint, say it ain't so.

So what? Lineage is not the point. Who cares who anyone's ancestors are?
ILLEGAL aliens are the point and making them abide by the rules is hardly persecution.

Rexmons · 05-30-2007, 04:12 PM

i dont know what this previous drama is about, but regarding your post:

The Vikings were here well before anyone, they planted the grapes at Marthas Vineyard.

:

Flint · 05-30-2007, 04:15 PM

The Vikings didn't settle permanently here.

They lacked the pandemic biological advantage of more disease-ridden Europeans, as the Vikings came through the decontamination zone of frigid lands where nasty microbes cannot survive outside the human body. Incidentally, the same reason the Natives had no resistance to Europeans sicknesses, they had come through the decontamination zone of the Bering Strait, and peopled a continent with no resistance to common bugs.

Urbane Guerrilla · 06-04-2007, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

They lacked the pandemic biological advantage of more disease-ridden Europeans, as the Vikings came through the decontamination zone of frigid lands where nasty microbes cannot survive outside the human body. Incidentally, the same reason the Natives had no resistance to Europeans sicknesses, they had come through the decontamination zone of the Bering Strait, and peopled a continent with no resistance to common bugs.

Interesting point, but here's another that seems even more valid: Europe, Africa, and Asia are all land-connected and in each of these places, animal husbandry is practiced. Smallpox in particular is associated with keeping cattle, as in all likelihood it's a small mutation of cowpox. Waves of smallpox infections can travel back and forth from one end of a continent and then back, like reflected waves off a seawall. Multiple continents, inhabited by humans, seem to mean a deeper pool of varied human diseases. Add in some other vectors (by a roll of the genetic dice) and look what you come up with.

Nor did it, we suspect, all go one way. In the early 1490s, syphilis, then present in Europe, suddenly turned virulent and a plague of it swept across the Continent. The timing seems more than a little suspicious.

Flint · 06-07-2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Interesting point, but here's another that seems even more valid: Europe, Africa, and Asia are all land-connected and in each of these places, animal husbandry is practiced. Smallpox in particular is associated with keeping cattle, as in all likelihood it's a small mutation of cowpox. Waves of smallpox infections can travel back and forth from one end of a continent and then back, like reflected waves off a seawall. Multiple continents, inhabited by humans, seem to mean a deeper pool of varied human diseases. Add in some other vectors (by a roll of the genetic dice) and look what you come up with.

Excellent point.
These cattle-vector disease were not present in the Americas; because #1 no cattle! and #2 the aforementioned decontaminated populace.

A curiously overlooked factor in the "settling" of the "new lands" was that everywhere the Europeans went, there were empty villages and crops already planted! At the time, the massive scale of biological depopulation was well-documented, usually attributed to a gift from God. It is questionable whether European culture would have been able to sustain an outpost of their civilization, had it not been for nature's "helping hand" ...

Our history textbooks, by omitting the disease factor, leave a story in which the Europeans, even if not sqeaky clean on a moral basis, at least prevailed due to some inherent superiority over the Native people. This is Eurocentricism, in other words White Supremacy.

xoxoxoBruce · 06-07-2007, 04:28 PM

I thought the diseases that wiped out many of the tribal villages came from the Spanish explorers that traveled all the major river in the Americas for a look-see. This was well before anyone came with the intension of staying.

05-30-2007, 04:31 PM	#7
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Looking at it that way, I should have said the Vikings were first genetically assimilated, followed by the Africans slaves of the Spanish and shortly thereafter by the Spanish themselves. The French got in there somewhere, as well. But it was the Spanish who managed to implant their culture more effectively; the French (and presumably the Vikings as well) sort of melted into the Native pot. Along the way, there were plenty of isolated tri-racial communities (and not-so-isolated as you mentioned), and the very idea of a "frontier line" ignores the cultural engagement zone. Also, the reason British didn't get in the mix more often was that the colonies enacted harsh draconian policies to prevent their own people from defecting. Blah blah blah we all get the point. The persecution of "aliens" we're undertaking now is tragically ironic. Hispanic people pre-date us on this continent by hundreds of years, and carry in them the blood of the original Americans. It won't change a thing, but that's the facts. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio** Last edited by Flint; 05-30-2007 at 04:36 PM.

05-30-2007, 04:08 PM	#8
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	I designed this thread as a shit-magnet, but I didn't know the Thread Drift would set in so quick! The irony is: Haiti. The native people of Haiti were the first people to be enslaved and wiped out by . . . who else? Our hero: Christopher Columbus! He was so effective at sucking the life and wealth out of this "new land" that his methods became the industry standard. The same methods that were later to be admired and emulated by . . . guess who? Hitler! There, I've done it! I've invoked Hitler! Soon this thread will collapse upon itself and drag us all into a hellish netherworld... __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

05-30-2007, 04:12 PM	#11
Rexmons - Kavkaz United - Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 613	i dont know what this previous drama is about, but regarding your post: The Vikings were here well before anyone, they planted the grapes at Marthas Vineyard. : __________________ "Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me..."

05-30-2007, 04:15 PM	#12
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	The Vikings didn't settle permanently here. They lacked the pandemic biological advantage of more disease-ridden Europeans, as the Vikings came through the decontamination zone of frigid lands where nasty microbes cannot survive outside the human body. Incidentally, the same reason the Natives had no resistance to Europeans sicknesses, they had come through the decontamination zone of the Bering Strait, and peopled a continent with no resistance to common bugs. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

06-07-2007, 04:28 PM	#15
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I thought the diseases that wiped out many of the tribal villages came from the Spanish explorers that traveled all the major river in the Americas for a look-see. This was well before anyone came with the intension of staying. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-30-2007, 01:44 PM	#1
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	This is MY America! Who can truly say this? The original Americans were obviously Native Americans. Next, the Spanish arrived with African slaves. The slaves revolted and the Spanish left. The Africans stayed, making them the first non-native Americans. Next, the Spanish came back to stay, making them the second non-native Americans. Spanish and Native peoples mixed, making Hispanic peoples the third non-native Americans. Next, the Dutch made settlements here, as the fourth non-native Americans. Many years later, the British came and established settlements, as the fifth non-native Americans. If you want to get technical, the Native-Americans (and to a lesser degree: Africans, Spanish, Hispanic, Dutch) should be the ones asking whether British descendants should be allowed to stay and work here. It's especially ridiculous to people living in Texas, which is technically a part of Mexico. History is written by the victors; and revisionist history by the victors descendants. Eurocentricism is so pervasive, it's transparent. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio** Last edited by Flint; 05-30-2007 at 01:54 PM.

05-30-2007, 03:25 PM	#3
jamesdalphonse1 Guest Posts: n/a	first thing that I want to say is that I AM NOT here to sell anyone anything. I think that it is quite RUDE that my previous membership was cancelled for absolutely no reason whatsoever. It just said, "sell it somewhere else." Another user asked me if I joined the cellar to get more traffic into my Haiti group, I said, "No, but if people want to join that is ok also." Maybe I don't fit into the "click" that they want in here.

05-30-2007, 04:24 PM	#6
lizzymahoney Major Inhabitant Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 124	Flint, there are some historians who contend the Vikings left more here than a few outbuildings. Farley Mowat, love him or hate him, in The Farfarers sets up a convincing argument that Viking blood lines are spread all over the North Atlantic along with Albans, Celts and Picts. Some Paleo-Inuit sites have skulls that are more Euro than Inuit. It's an interesting topic. Essentially I agree with your point about history being rewritten by the victors, probably many times over. I don't think any of us can claim a birthright of this land. The Seminoles in my state are rather like the Zulu in that they did not exist before, what, 1800 or later. Some will tell you that Seminoles are Creek descendants with black runaway slaves and white deserters mixed in. I don't think it matters much anymore. It might have been a point of distinction at one time, but they are what they are now, not 150 years ago. Two of my grandparents were the Canadian born children of Irish immigrants fleeing the potato famines. I may have an interest in the history and the culture, but it's not personal at this remove. If Mowat and others are right, I must have Alban, Norse, and Pict mixed in with the Celt. And descended from a sea faring country that was visited by other cultures, I probably could claim some Moorish blood as well. lizzymahoney is my nom, not my heraldic shield.

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