Losing my religion.

perth · 10-10-2003, 04:25 PM

Thanks to REM for the unoriginal title.

Most of you know that I lost my sister some months back to a very small cyst at the base of her brain. This event, for some bizarre reason, strengthened my belief in a higher power, specifically, God.

But now that I've had time to think about it...

I think juju said it best when he said "religion is a bunch of fucking bunk". I might have gotten the words wrong, but its close enough. I am sick of being told that my sister's death was part of God's plan, and I'm appalled when I get accused of "presuming to question God" when I want to know where exactly it fits in with his little "plan".

In the past, when I engaged in debate over religion, I found myself defending the people. I could not understand the venom felt toward christians in general. I tried not to be an asshole about my beliefs. Surely most other christians behave the same way. Boy was I wrong.

When I found myself questioning my beliefs, rather than the nurturing and support I might hope for from fellow christians, I found judgement and scorn. Since when do christians get to preach the teachings of the bible but not follow it? "Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone", anyone?

But I guess that's neither here nor there at this point. Whit challenged my beliefs once, and I did a terrible job explaining them, because they were not well fleshed out. I think I have got it figured out now.

There is no God. God has no "Plan".

Christians are a bunch of people who excuse their poor behaviour and attitudes by claiming divine forgiveness documented in a book which tells them to behave exactly the opposite of the way they do.

There are exceptions to this rule, of course. There are christians out there who truly are humble, and model their lives after the Jesus', as depicted in the new testament. But they are not nearly as common as I once believed. But I still think they are wrong.

It was really hard to admit this all to myself, and it was even harder to write (type) it and post it for the world to see. But I am glad I did. I feel better now.

~James

Happy Monkey · 10-10-2003, 05:04 PM

No argument here.

Plenty below.

hot_pastrami · 10-10-2003, 05:35 PM

I can identify, except that there was no triggering moment in my life which brought me to my conclusions.. mine were born of simple logic and observation applied over many years. I was raised in Mormon central, so I was rarely exposed o the possibility that God is merely a creation of man, but by the time I was about 15, I had severe doubts, and by 20 I had concluded that "God" is a pretty name for what amounts to little more than a mental crutch.

Of course, I respect others' rights to their own conclusions on the existence of $diety, whether they conflict with mine or not, as long as they don't try to ram them down my throat.

xoxoxoBruce · 10-10-2003, 05:48 PM

Be careful, Perth. Your risking whiplash or at least ping pong syndrome.
Like any large group of people, except maybe Libertarians, there are all kinds. Some good, some bad, some ugly and shouldn't be painted with a broad brush. Being a Christian is a personal choice of faith and I think your mistake was thinking that all Christians proscribe to a certain lifestyle.
Certainly many of the southern slave owners considered themselves good Christians. So did the abolitionists.

perth · 10-10-2003, 05:56 PM

Thats why I say there are exceptions to the rule. There are, and I have met some of them. But I am coming to the realisation that the vast majority of christians i know (that is an important distinction, and I should have made it in the first place) are assholes. And they think its okay to be an asshole, because, like the bumper sticker says, "Chritians aren't perfect, just forgiven" (my blood boils any time I see that sticker).

I would not be of this opinion if people the fundies would realise that when Jesus said "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", he was talking to them. Thats the problem. Religion is a crutch and a shield to too many people. And I cannot defend that attitude any more.

Yes, there are wonderful people that believe in God. Its too bad they don't have more influence.

~James

perth · 10-10-2003, 05:58 PM

Pastrami's post reminded me of this, posted on metafilter today.

I think this is much the same as seeing the Virgin Mary on a fencepost, but its an interesting idea, nonetheless.

~James

daniwong · 10-10-2003, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by perth
Thats why I say there are exceptions to the rule. There are, and I have met some of them. But I am coming to the realisation that the vast majority of christians i know (that is an important distinction, and I should have made it in the first place) are assholes. And they think its okay to be an asshole, because, like the bumper sticker says, "Chritians aren't perfect, just forgiven" (my blood boils any time I see that sticker).

I would not be of this opinion if people the fundies would realise that when Jesus said "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", he was talking to them. Thats the problem. Religion is a crutch and a shield to too many people. And I cannot defend that attitude any more.

Yes, there are wonderful people that believe in God. Its too bad they don't have more influence.

~James

Perth - I'm with ya. I don't believe in God and the Bible anymore either. Mine was not one defining moment. I was raised Baptist but my parents taught me to question everything. They told me that until I was 18 I needed to attend Church, but that after that - and during Church - I should question everything and decide what is right for me. I just saw while growing up so many hypocrites and really disgusting non-christian like attitudes in the church that organized religion in general leaves a bad taste in my mouth. (I also just had someone from work say "Well George W. Bush believes in God - so he's who I'm gonna vote for.") WTF?

I am an extreme believer in Karma - what you do to others will come back to you. (And if its bad - it will bite you in your ass.) I don't see it is a sad thing loosing my religion. I see it as an awakening.

elSicomoro · 10-10-2003, 08:55 PM

First of all, where the fuck have you been? I even asked where you were in my user title a few weeks back.

I personally am sorry to hear about this. But, no one can be right when it comes to "Does God exist?", so if you are at peace, then it's all good.

I firmly believe in God, though I am not a Christian. I think of Christianity in the same way that I do Communism: nice in theory, bad in practice.

wolf · 10-10-2003, 09:47 PM

I've also been wondering what's been up with you, buddy. Long time no see your pixels. Welcome back!

As far as the thread topic goes ... I've been thinking about this and don't want to come off sounding preachy. It's not what you need to find your way through your life events.

Short answer is don't close any doors. Try being spiritual instead of religious for a while, see how it goes for you.

There are many paths to spirit. Some follow conventional beliefs, others esoteric. Some find spiritual fulfillment in the laugh of a child, or the fall of rain, or the light of the new moon, or in silence.

Blessings.

elSicomoro · 10-10-2003, 09:49 PM

Exactly...for example, I worship Cadbury, as they make the greatest beverage known to man--Dr. Pepper.

God · 10-10-2003, 10:12 PM

Let me make something perfectly clear.

My original role was that of controlling you retards through guilt embarrassment and the kings' whims. Not having a real gov't and endless agencies to spy on, tax and arrest you fools makes it pretty tough to grow a society. What was I supposed to do, send a ufo to look over you? No, some genius came up with the bible.

I was on vacation when the bible was sent up for review and approval. My underlings signed off on it. There's a lot of great stories in the bible but after you all invented TV, I knew it was all but finished.

There is a god and he has a plan. Just not the plan most folks think of or can understand.

perth · 10-10-2003, 10:18 PM

I needed some time away from the cellar.

Sorry, and its nice to be missed. Just needed to clear my head. I have been thinking about this post for a while, and I need to go away so I could make sure I was clear on my feelings.

Wolf, I appreciate distinction betwen spirituality and christian faith. I guess I still believe that while Jesus may not have been holy, he was a wise and humble man. People could do worse than following his teachings. But I do mena follow. Not "I believe in Jesus, so I'm going to heaven and you're going to hell. Nyah nyah".

I believe there is room for spirituality in every life. How you choose to fulfill that, or not to, is up to you. Myself? I don't want to be told anymore. I do have some bitterness toward christians, and much of that is likely misplaced. I will work on that, because I do not want to be bitter. But I will never allow myself to be told what to believe again.

And yeah, Dr. Pepper is the greatest beverage known to man. Unless you count beer. Especially if that beer is a nice red colour.

Whit · 10-10-2003, 10:51 PM

      Perth! It's good to see you back, you've been missed.

      I'd like to take something Syc said a step farther, in a different direction and offer a counterpoint everyone else.

Quote:

From Syc:
no one can be right when it comes to "Does God exist?"

      Here's the rub on that. If you choose to believe there is no god then you are basing your opinion off faith every bit as much as any christian. The same is true of all religions. Whether you choose to believe it's true or choose to believe it's false. I'm sure you remember my thoughts on faith? Actually, I guess I never went into it that much.
      The problem with faith is that you are choosing to treat an opinion as a fact. We don't know who, if anyone, has got it right. You can choose to follow a path provided or form a hybrid of several to make your own. Whatever path you choose it's a choice based on what you want to believe, not what you know. It still comes back to faith.
      Consider this though, you don't have to have an opinion. You can admit ignorance of the hereafter and the grand scheme of things outright. You can drop the idea of any form of cosmic balance or universal justice at will. The really amazing part? It won't change a damn thing.
      You can apply your experiences directly to decide if something is good or bad, with no old book to advise you. No need to reference anything beyond your own point of view and the point of view of people you consider intelligent and/or insightful.
      Look to your own road for guidance. Instead of walking in the moral path of a man you consider great, seek out where he was going. Look for the wisdom in the words of others, but value the wisdom as it applies to you.
      You say you "lost" your religion. See the gain, you are more free now than you have ever been. Breathe the air for a bit before you start believing something else you can't prove. Like "There is no God." Try instead, "If there's a god, why should I care?"

elSicomoro · 10-10-2003, 11:12 PM

"You gotta work out your own salvation"--The The

Sperlock · 10-12-2003, 12:35 PM

I'd recommend reading the series Conversations With God by Neale Donald Walsch. Some good thoughts in there and more in line with what I believe.

10-10-2003, 04:25 PM	#1
perth Strong Silent Type Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Fort Collins, CO Posts: 1,949	Losing my religion. Thanks to REM for the unoriginal title. Most of you know that I lost my sister some months back to a very small cyst at the base of her brain. This event, for some bizarre reason, strengthened my belief in a higher power, specifically, God. But now that I've had time to think about it... I think juju said it best when he said "religion is a bunch of fucking bunk". I might have gotten the words wrong, but its close enough. I am sick of being told that my sister's death was part of God's plan, and I'm appalled when I get accused of "presuming to question God" when I want to know where exactly it fits in with his little "plan". In the past, when I engaged in debate over religion, I found myself defending the people. I could not understand the venom felt toward christians in general. I tried not to be an asshole about my beliefs. Surely most other christians behave the same way. Boy was I wrong. When I found myself questioning my beliefs, rather than the nurturing and support I might hope for from fellow christians, I found judgement and scorn. Since when do christians get to preach the teachings of the bible but not follow it? "Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone", anyone? But I guess that's neither here nor there at this point. Whit challenged my beliefs once, and I did a terrible job explaining them, because they were not well fleshed out. I think I have got it figured out now. There is no God. God has no "Plan". Christians are a bunch of people who excuse their poor behaviour and attitudes by claiming divine forgiveness documented in a book which tells them to behave exactly the opposite of the way they do. There are exceptions to this rule, of course. There are christians out there who truly are humble, and model their lives after the Jesus', as depicted in the new testament. But they are not nearly as common as I once believed. But I still think they are wrong. It was really hard to admit this all to myself, and it was even harder to write (type) it and post it for the world to see. But I am glad I did. I feel better now. ~James

10-10-2003, 05:04 PM	#2
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	No argument here. Plenty below. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

10-10-2003, 05:35 PM	#3
hot_pastrami I am meaty Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 1,119	I can identify, except that there was no triggering moment in my life which brought me to my conclusions.. mine were born of simple logic and observation applied over many years. I was raised in Mormon central, so I was rarely exposed o the possibility that God is merely a creation of man, but by the time I was about 15, I had severe doubts, and by 20 I had concluded that "God" is a pretty name for what amounts to little more than a mental crutch. Of course, I respect others' rights to their own conclusions on the existence of $diety, whether they conflict with mine or not, as long as they don't try to ram them down my throat. __________________ Hot Pastrami!

10-10-2003, 05:48 PM	#4
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Be careful, Perth. Your risking whiplash or at least ping pong syndrome. Like any large group of people, except maybe Libertarians, there are all kinds. Some good, some bad, some ugly and shouldn't be painted with a broad brush. Being a Christian is a personal choice of faith and I think your mistake was thinking that all Christians proscribe to a certain lifestyle. Certainly many of the southern slave owners considered themselves good Christians. So did the abolitionists. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

10-10-2003, 09:47 PM	#9
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	I've also been wondering what's been up with you, buddy. Long time no see your pixels. Welcome back! As far as the thread topic goes ... I've been thinking about this and don't want to come off sounding preachy. It's not what you need to find your way through your life events. Short answer is don't close any doors. Try being spiritual instead of religious for a while, see how it goes for you. There are many paths to spirit. Some follow conventional beliefs, others esoteric. Some find spiritual fulfillment in the laugh of a child, or the fall of rain, or the light of the new moon, or in silence. Blessings. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

10-10-2003, 05:56 PM	#5
perth Strong Silent Type Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Fort Collins, CO Posts: 1,949	Thats why I say there are exceptions to the rule. There are, and I have met some of them. But I am coming to the realisation that the vast majority of christians i know (that is an important distinction, and I should have made it in the first place) are assholes. And they think its okay to be an asshole, because, like the bumper sticker says, "Chritians aren't perfect, just forgiven" (my blood boils any time I see that sticker). I would not be of this opinion if people the fundies would realise that when Jesus said "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", he was talking to them. Thats the problem. Religion is a crutch and a shield to too many people. And I cannot defend that attitude any more. Yes, there are wonderful people that believe in God. Its too bad they don't have more influence. ~James

10-10-2003, 05:58 PM	#6
perth Strong Silent Type Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Fort Collins, CO Posts: 1,949	Pastrami's post reminded me of this, posted on metafilter today. I think this is much the same as seeing the Virgin Mary on a fencepost, but its an interesting idea, nonetheless. ~James

10-10-2003, 08:55 PM	#8
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	First of all, where the fuck have you been? I even asked where you were in my user title a few weeks back. I personally am sorry to hear about this. But, no one can be right when it comes to "Does God exist?", so if you are at peace, then it's all good. I firmly believe in God, though I am not a Christian. I think of Christianity in the same way that I do Communism: nice in theory, bad in practice.

10-10-2003, 09:49 PM	#10
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	Exactly...for example, I worship Cadbury, as they make the greatest beverage known to man--Dr. Pepper.

10-10-2003, 10:12 PM	#11
God Not half the God I used to be Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: everywhere but enjoy the Vets club best Posts: 120	Let me make something perfectly clear. My original role was that of controlling you retards through guilt embarrassment and the kings' whims. Not having a real gov't and endless agencies to spy on, tax and arrest you fools makes it pretty tough to grow a society. What was I supposed to do, send a ufo to look over you? No, some genius came up with the bible. I was on vacation when the bible was sent up for review and approval. My underlings signed off on it. There's a lot of great stories in the bible but after you all invented TV, I knew it was all but finished. There is a god and he has a plan. Just not the plan most folks think of or can understand.

10-10-2003, 10:18 PM	#12
perth Strong Silent Type Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Fort Collins, CO Posts: 1,949	I needed some time away from the cellar. Sorry, and its nice to be missed. Just needed to clear my head. I have been thinking about this post for a while, and I need to go away so I could make sure I was clear on my feelings. Wolf, I appreciate distinction betwen spirituality and christian faith. I guess I still believe that while Jesus may not have been holy, he was a wise and humble man. People could do worse than following his teachings. But I do mena follow. Not "I believe in Jesus, so I'm going to heaven and you're going to hell. Nyah nyah". I believe there is room for spirituality in every life. How you choose to fulfill that, or not to, is up to you. Myself? I don't want to be told anymore. I do have some bitterness toward christians, and much of that is likely misplaced. I will work on that, because I do not want to be bitter. But I will never allow myself to be told what to believe again. And yeah, Dr. Pepper is the greatest beverage known to man. Unless you count beer. Especially if that beer is a nice red colour.

10-10-2003, 11:12 PM	#14
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	"You gotta work out your own salvation"--The The

10-12-2003, 12:35 PM	#15
Sperlock Elite Elitist Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 322	Recommended reading I'd recommend reading the series Conversations With God by Neale Donald Walsch. Some good thoughts in there and more in line with what I believe. __________________ Every oak tree started out as a couple of nuts who stood their ground. - Anonymous http://informationthreshold.blogspot.com, http://spiritualthreshold.blogspot.com

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)