Who can tell me sth about the American Dream

[lookout123]

What segment of our society gives the least and takes the most? It is not the poor of our country, but the wealthy with their endless tax breaks and insider deals and their condos in Aspen and their expensive gas guzzeling cars and their exclusive gated communities.

what dollar amount did the people you are ranting against here pay into the tax coffers last year?

this is nothing but a rant against people who have what you don't. when there is talk of a tax system overhaul such as a flat tax that would cause the wealthy to pay more - who lobbies against it. it isn't the wealthy. it is the blue collar folks who are being advised by their labor organizations and their local politicians who are being paid by lobbiests for cpa and attorney groups that rally against it.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by lookout123

not if you are doing what you are supposed to do and saving and investing for your retirement years. the people who didn't save and invest rarely get a comfortable retirement at any age, during any time period.

so on that note, what are you doing to prepare for your retirement?

I put money from every paycheck into a 401k, just like I should. Is that the answer you're looking for? The money I put into Social Secuity will be spent by the time I retire. I'm not relying on it, trust me.

You seem to ignore the fact that people retiring today have their savings PLUS social security. My mom has a bit of savings, and gets something like $1,200 a month in SS. She's not hurting. Calculate that $1,200 into 2035 dollars and see how much that is that people my age won't be getting.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by garnet

Calculate that $1,200 into 2035 dollars and see how much that is that people my age won't be getting.

and that is ok. social security wasn't meant to last forever and it wasn't meant to pay as many people as it does for as long as it does.
they are going to have to raise the ss eligibility age to even give it a chance at surviving but good luck to the politician who puts his name on that bill.

I put money from every paycheck into a 401k, just like I should. Is that the answer you're looking for?

believe it or not - not every comment is intended to draw you into a fight. it was simply a question. your 401K and your Roth are the cornerstones of your retirement. if you are not taking full advantage of these options you are really missing the boat. yes, i understand that budget constraints do exist. but if at all possible everyone should fund these 2 items at least, even if only $25 monthly goes into the Roth to start. planning for your retirement is more about habit than it is dollar amounts.

[alphageek31337]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

What happened to you? Such hostility.

Um, nothing happened to me. I didn't intend for that phrase to be read with any hostility at all. I guess I should use more emoticons. But it's a serious question--why do you see the modern grunt worker as "miserable" but the grunt worker from the past was satisfied? I'd be curious to see an inflation-adjusted comparison of their earnings, I bet they weren't too disparate.

The grunt worker from the past is satisfied because he worked for a company that worked for him. I'm flipping through an old sociology text, and the phrase is Social Contract...it's what Henry Ford meant when he reasoned that his workers would buy his automobiles if he made sure they could afford them. It's what Ken Lay violated when he raped so many people of their retirement savings. It's the idea that someone can start working for a company in the mail room at 16 years old, stick with that same company all his life, and retire comfortably from a good position. It's a faith that the people you work for are looking out for your best interests, and not just how to squeeze every last drop of productivity out of you while paying you just enough to make sure that you can't get a better deal elsewhere. It's common fucking decency amongst employers, and it disappeared somewhere in the 80s.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

What happened to you? Such hostility.

Um, nothing happened to me. I didn't intend for that phrase to be read with any hostility at all. I guess I should use more emoticons. But it's a serious question--why do you see the modern grunt worker as "miserable" but the grunt worker from the past was satisfied? I'd be curious to see an inflation-adjusted comparison of their earnings, I bet they weren't too disparate.

My question to you is what makes you think that the grunt worker of the past was delirious with joy at the beginning of every new 10 hour work day? Ever read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair?

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by lookout123

when there is talk of a tax system overhaul such as a flat tax that would cause the wealthy to pay more - who lobbies against it. it isn't the wealthy.

Nobody ever talks about a flat tax that would cause the wealthy to pay more. When a flat tax is talked about (in politics), it is pushed by the obscenely wealthy, like Forbes, because the way it would be formulated would drastically decrease their tax liability, and they wouldn't even have to cheat with accountants or donate to charity to do it.

[echo]

oh.my God.I just want to learn sth more about the American Dream cause I am not an American ,and I often met this word when I read books on American culture or background.I didn't expect to bring about a debate or argument among you on such a topic.Anyway,thank you all very much,I like the atmosphere here

Originally Posted by echo

oh.my God.I just want to learn sth more about the American Dream cause I am not an American ,and I often met this word when I read books on American culture or background.I didn't expect to bring about a debate or argument among you on such a topic.Anyway,thank you all very much,I like the atmosphere here

Hey, no problem. This group will debate anything at the drop of a hat. I imagine it must have been something of a surprise for a new comer, though. We all thought you were just some school kid trying to get us to write a homework assignment for him. Stick around. You should read us go at it when we REALLY get worked up.

Originally Posted by lookout123

what dollar amount did the people you are ranting against here pay into the tax coffers last year?

this is nothing but a rant against people who have what you don't. when there is talk of a tax system overhaul such as a flat tax that would cause the wealthy to pay more - who lobbies against it. it isn't the wealthy. it is the blue collar folks who are being advised by their labor organizations and their local politicians who are being paid by lobbiests for cpa and attorney groups that rally against it.

I can't give you the particular statistic you asked for, but I can give you the following:
Over the past three years, special interest groups pushed through Congress $2 trillion dollars in tax cuts – almost all tilted towards the wealthiest people in the country. These include:
Cuts in taxes on the largest incomes.
Cuts in taxes on investment income.
And cuts in taxes on huge inheritances.
More than half of the benefits are going to the wealthiest one percent.

Last May Congress approved new tax credits for children. Not for poor
children, however. But for families earning as much as $309,000 a
year—families that already enjoy significant benefits from earlier tax cuts.

My source for the above is the same one I cited earlier.

Your assertion that the blue collar worker has opposed attempts to set a flat rate tax in the past, if true, only goes to prove my point that we have all allowed ourselves to become brainwashed to all common sense and the reality of what's really happening in this country.

[Catwoman]

The crucial paradox of the American Dream is that it is relative.

One person may see a nice riverside cottage with pigs and chickens as their Dream.
The next may see a three story Malibu mansion with a wife and six girlfriends as theirs.

The point is, you will never achieve it for as long as you possess the mentality of achievement. Let me tell you something. Your achievements mean nothing, because one day, you're going to die. Your cars and your clothes and your millions mean nothing.

I hope you realise this before you go chasing a dream that can never be caught. It keeps you working hard. That's why it was created. So go back to your job and work hard, earn some money, live your life. But don't do it for yourself in the sense that it will add to your accumulation of experience/power/wealth/knowledge. Do it because you need money to eat and to feed your family.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by marichiko

My question to you is what makes you think that the grunt worker of the past was delirious with joy at the beginning of every new 10 hour work day? Ever read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair?

I don't, mari, that's my whole point. That was the dichotomy that garnet seemed to be espousing. I think all grunt workers of all eras are sometimes unsatisfied with their jobs, but I believe that both then and today they have the opportunity to make a better life for themselves if they want to take it. I don't believe the American Dream is dead.

Echo, the main idea behind the American Dream is that everyone has an opportunity to succeed, regardless of who their parents were or how little they started out with.

[lookout123]

clodfobble has summarized it all very well.

[xoxoxoBruce]

National health care?
Most health care is required because of our own stupidity not some plague. Most of the people in the hospital were not blindsided by a disease out of the blue, but stupid accidents and in many cases preventable conditions. The people that Brianna mentioned, with roaches and crap all over the house, will probably get sick, eventually. Same for the germaphobics that try to sterilize their world. Don't force me to bear the burden of your foolish choices.

The one who is robbing you blind is the corporation with its off shore banking practices, its tax dodges that it got via its very own paid congressman, and the jobs it outsourced away from your community and off to some third world country.

We have a strong work ethic, we go to church and school, and we are by and by large honest. The people of this country have been decieved into believing that their fellow Americans are the enemy. Nothing could be further from the truth and yet, nothing else could better serve to further the ends of those few at the top who do not cry "More", but merely seize it from our unresisting hands instead.

These robber barons are robbing you blind? STOP DOING BUSINESS WITH THEM!!
You piss and moan about how they make everything overseas, but you keep buying the stuff. By “you” I mean everybody.
If you’re not part of the solution, your part of the problem.
They do this because you let them, but you’re so damned wrapped up in buying more shit you don’t need and will be paying the trash man to haul away shortly, you don’t see what you’re doing to the future of this country.

I’m not talking about someday, I’m talking about the next 10 years, 5 years, it’s already started and YOU are the only one that can turn this around.
YOU can convince them in the marketplace, at the interface between the robber baron and yourself.....the cash register.
You don’t have to deprive yourself or your family, just shop smarter. And yes, you can still buy everything you NEED, made right here, with very few exceptions.

The robber barons are like kin folk, slap half of them up side the head and the rest will pay attention.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

These robber barons are robbing you blind? STOP DOING BUSINESS WITH THEM!!
You piss and moan about how they make everything overseas, but you keep buying the stuff. By “you” I mean everybody.
If you’re not part of the solution, your part of the problem.
They do this because you let them, but you’re so damned wrapped up in buying more shit you don’t need and will be paying the trash man to haul away shortly, you don’t see what you’re doing to the future of this country.

I agree with you. But have you tried to go to even places like all-American Wal-Mart and find stuff you need that ISN'T made in China, Bangladesh or Mexico? I'm not someone who's into shopping or having lots of "stuff" just for the sake of it. Yes, you can buy products made only in America if you have copius amounts of time to go track them down. I've tried, and it's not that easy.

[russotto]

Originally Posted by marichiko

If you wanted to create a strong country, one where it was possible to dream dreams and with enough hard work and courage, make them possible, where would you begin? Wouldn't it be with the PEOPLE of that country?

People who live in their own filth and object when people tell them this is not a good thing are not something it is possible to work with.

Like it or not, we are all inter-connected and we all depend upon one another.

Actually, we are not. There is a lot of interdependence, but it is by no means universal.

If I am childless, why should I have to pay taxes that will help put my neighbor's children through school? If for no other reason then my own good, that's why. The neighbor's child will grow into the adult who gives me medical care or repairs my car or becomes the minister at the church I attend or repairs the lines which carry electricity in my home.

And he'll demand to be paid then, so why should you pay him now? If he becomes a doctor, are you going to tell him "My taxes put your ungrateful ass through school, so I'm not paying my medical bill".

What a large return on such a relatively small investment!

Easy for you to say, since you aren't paying it. For me, it's about $3000/year, and it only goes up.

What segment of our society gives the least and takes the most? It is not the poor of our country, but the wealthy with their endless tax breaks and insider deals and their condos in Aspen and their expensive gas guzzeling cars and their exclusive gated communities.

The poor don't pay income taxes, so its no surprise they have fewer tax breaks. Of course, there IS the Earned Income Tax Credit, which they take. As for the wealthy, they pay for their condos in Aspen and their expensive gas guzzling cars (built, BTW, by much poorer people) and their exclusive gated communities; they aren't taking from me by doing so.