What if I've been wrong about W?

[jaguar]

I am but I don't see what may happen as to any notable degree, the result of Bush's actions. Bush can't back up his words, there isn't the military capacity.

[Undertoad]

Right, there is NO connection whatsoever between millions of Iraqis holding up ink-stained fingers on Aljazeera and the Lebanese public cheerily fomenting change in the streets. It's all coincidence, along with the Egyptians, and the Saudi women possibly getting a vote, these things would have happened in isolation too.

Also, if you cover your ears and sing real loud the monsters can't get you in the dark.

[tw]

Originally Posted by jaguar

What the fuck does the Syrians assassinating a popular Lebanese politician leading to mass protests have to do with Bush?

The George Jr propaganda machine is that good. Many Americans foolishly think the elections in Iraq were the reason for these Lebanese demonstrations. Notice how the world revolves around American perspectives? But the incentive for those demonstrations was the equivalent of Martin Luther King being shot combined with a Lebanese fascination with the Orange Revolution in Ukraine.

This assassination has been rather galvanizing. This may be the first time that Druze, Shia, and Maronites are fully in agreement. Not because Syria executed the assassination. That again is American propaganda again not supported by any facts. This Lebanese leader resigned only because he could not lead an independent Lebanon. That surprise (virtually not reported in the US) combined with his murder galvanized all parties in Lebanon to a patriotic fever. A fever they saw reported extensively in Ukraine. What is happening in Lebanon is very similar to the popular uprising in Ukraine. Ukraine (not Iraq) is what got the Lebanese attention - once we eliminate White House propaganda.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Right, there is NO connection whatsoever between millions of Iraqis holding up ink-stained fingers on Aljazeera and the Lebanese public cheerily fomenting change in the streets. It's all coincidence, along with the Egyptians, and the Saudi women possibly getting a vote, these things would have happened in isolation too.

Also, if you cover your ears and sing real loud the monsters can't get you in the dark.

Lebanese holding up printed English signs. When there are anti-American demonstrations, we claim they are government controlled or the result of outside agitators. When there are anti-government demonstrations, we deny that we in any way funded these groups.

I am pretty sure we didn't have anything to do with Hariri's death, but considering how far we are stretching the definition of anti-terror operations, you have to wonder if we're back to our old tricks.

There's a lot of room for funding black-bag operations in budgets with no supervision.

[Griff]

Isn't the Ukraine that place where the American stooge beat the Russian stooge?

[Griff]

Originally Posted by richlevy

...you have to wonder if we're back to our old tricks.

Well inside the realm of possibility.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Griff

Isn't the Ukraine that place where the American stooge beat the Russian stooge?

And they all have real long and similar names making a long story that much harder to comprehend. Simpler to call one pro-western and the other pro-Russian. Or even easier - one is George Jr's man; the other is Putin's man. Forget the other candidates that only muddy the story. Then one need not read a long and rather 'Clancy like' story.

The climax in Ukraine was a nation wide demonstration equivalent to a Civil Rights March in Washington or another that was against the War. The Orange Revolution of Ukraine resurfaces in Lebanon.

[Undertoad]

I love you guys, I really do. But you really should get together on your alibis:

Originally Posted by tw

The George Jr propaganda machine is that good. Many Americans foolishly think the elections in Iraq were the reason for these Lebanese demonstrations. Notice how the world revolves around American perspectives?

Originally Posted by richlevy

Lebanese holding up printed English signs. There's a lot of room for funding black-bag operations in budgets with no supervision.

D'ya follow? Either it has nothing at all to do with the US, and we should be ashamed that we think it's all about us -- or, it was entirely orchestrated by the US using secret black budgets but not enough supervision to tell them to re-write the signs in Arabic.

Wouldn't it be easier to hold your hands over your ears and sing?

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I love you guys, I really do. But you really should get together on your alibis:


D'ya follow? Either it has nothing at all to do with the US, and we should be ashamed that we think it's all about us -- or, it was entirely orchestrated by the US using secret black budgets but not enough supervision to tell them to re-write the signs in Arabic.

Wouldn't it be easier to hold your hands over your ears and sing?

Forgive me for being suspicious, I forgot that we have never before meddled in any other countries internal affairs with dirty tricks. My bad.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

D'ya follow? Either it has nothing at all to do with the US, and we should be ashamed that we think it's all about us -- or, it was entirely orchestrated by the US using secret black budgets but not enough supervision to tell them to re-write the signs in Arabic.

Rich has too many good reasons to suspect underhanded US involvement. I don't see any direct involvement. IOW Rich and I are not monolithic. We are both examining a very complicated situation with different perspectives.

How complicated? Well first off, Syria is a primary source of American intelligence in the region. Go figure. Furthermore, Condi Rice is quite skillfully playing the situation as a subtle threat to that same Syria. Go figure. Situation cannot be comprehended in a two dimensional 'good and evil' perspective. But to appreciate the primary inspiration for a demonstration of united Maronites, Shia, and Druze (who ten years ago would have thought it possible), one must look to Ukraine and its thrilling Orange Revolution.

Neither George Jr nor the Iraqi election was the inspiration for that crowd. Maybe George Jr ordered the assassination? Don't give George Jr credit for being that skillful. But George Jr's skillful propaganda machine is using half truths and events in Lebanon to promote themselves domestically - because so many Americans don't follow world news. The administration spin actually has people believing this was all due to US 'pushing democracy down the Middle East throat'. That would be a silly 'good and evil' interpretation. The world, especially in Lebanon, is far more complex.

[Undertoad]

What a paradox: the Bush administration is remarkably stupid and incompetent - except for when spinning the American public, at which time they are remarkably brilliant and talented.

Kind of like how Rich's "perspective" is 180 degrees different from your own, but he's not "wrong"; because even though he's just throwing out a bunch of stuff to see what sticks, without any facts, he's anti-administration - and that makes him not-wrong, by definition.

[Undertoad]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m...equestid=20282

Mark Steyn explains it:

Consider just the past couple of days' news: not the ever more desperate depravity of the floundering "insurgency", but the real popular Arab resistance the car-bombers and the head-hackers are flailing against: the Saudi foreign minister, who by remarkable coincidence goes by the name of Prince Saud, told Newsweek that women would be voting in the next Saudi election. "That is going to be good for the election," he said, "because I think women are more sensible voters than men."

Four-time Egyptian election winner - and with 90 per cent of the vote! - President Mubarak announced that next polling day he wouldn't mind an opponent. Ordering his stenographer to change the constitution to permit the first multi-choice presidential elections in Egyptian history, His Excellency said the country would benefit from "more freedom and democracy". The state-run TV network hailed the president's speech as a "historical decision in the nation's 7,000-year-old march toward democracy". After 7,000 years on the march, they're barely out of the parking lot, so Mubarak's move is, as they say, a step in the right direction.

Meanwhile in Damascus, Boy Assad, having badly overplayed his hand in Lebanon and after months of denying that he was harbouring any refugee Saddamites, suddenly discovered that - wouldja believe it? - Saddam's brother and 29 other bigshot Baghdad Baathists were holed up in north-eastern Syria, and promptly handed them over to the Iraqi government.

And, for perhaps the most remarkable development, consider this report from Mohammed Ballas of Associated Press: "Palestinians expressed anger on Saturday at an overnight suicide bombing in Tel Aviv that killed four Israelis and threatened a fragile truce, a departure from former times when they welcomed attacks on their Israeli foes."

No disrespect to Associated Press, but I was disinclined to take their word for it. However, Charles Johnson, whose Little Green Footballs website has done an invaluable job these past three years presenting the ugly truth about Palestinian death-cultism, reported that he went hunting around the internet for the usual photographs of deliriously happy Gazans dancing in the street and handing out sweets to celebrate the latest addition to the pile of Jew corpses - and, to his surprise, couldn't find any.

Why is all this happening? Answer: January 30. Don't take my word for it, listen to Walid Jumblatt, big-time Lebanese Druze leader and a man of impeccable anti-American credentials: "I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, eight million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world. The Berlin Wall has fallen."

[jaguar]

Right, there is NO connection whatsoever between millions of Iraqis holding up ink-stained fingers on Aljazeera and the Lebanese public cheerily fomenting change in the streets.

No. There isn't. One is about holding people to ransom with food stamps, the other is a reaction to a very public assassination and a rapidly developing country sick of war and foreign intervention. Lebanon is a very, very different place to Iraq in so many ways it's not funny, it's more like Berlin than Bagdhad, you need to understand that. I don't think you do, if you do, you're choosing to ignore it because it gets in the way of this odd idea that somehow, the US is responsible for the uprising.

No disrespect to Associated Press, but I was disinclined to take their word for it. However, Charles Johnson, whose Little Green Footballs website has done an invaluable job these past three years presenting the ugly truth about Palestinian death-cultism....

Ah, the great far-right circle-jerk. The telegraph has it's uses, cheap insulation, mopping up spills, starting fires but don't make the mistake of reading it. That said, I cannot honestly believe a newspaper would refer to LGF, the mind boggles. Lets not notice the death of Arafat and events since then, I'm sure that had no impact whatsoever on the situation at all in Israel.

What a paradox: the Bush administration is remarkably stupid and incompetent - except for when spinning the American public, at which time they are remarkably brilliant and talented.

Paraphrasing isn't your strong point. There's a combination of factors, a timied, totally whipped US press busy licking bush's asshole and I must admit, very skilled spin from Rove. By creating support based on image andmore abstract values like morals, there are a number of figures, most of which the public wouldn't even recognise and some of whom who have no left since their ideas have failed who have been free to execute some very extreme policy under a pliant president who is willing to be led by those who surround him.

There are a lot of intersting things going on in the ME at the moment, some good, some bad, most of which will come to nothing more than token moves. There's a fair chance that Syria will pull out and maybe things can stay on track in Israel, time will tell but if you think the US is resonsible for either, you're kidding yourself.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

What a paradox: the Bush administration is remarkably stupid and incompetent - except for when spinning the American public, at which time they are remarkably brilliant and talented.

It is pretty hard to believe that someone could be skilled in one area and incompetent in others.

[Undertoad]

That's right Jag - progressive Lebanon, backwards Saudi, mixed Egypt - it's all coincidence. Like when Libya gave up its WMDs on the heels of the Iraq invasion, just coincidence.

Happy people holding up their finger proudly to show they've been... held up for food stamps? What shit are you eating over there? Wouldn't it be easier to hold your hands over your ears and sing, than to make this kind of shit up?

As far as newspapers referring to LGF, in this case Steyn is noticing that LGF is NOT circle-jerking, which is why the information is notable. When the chamber doesn't echo, that's news too.

BTW Steyn is a Canuck I think, writing in the Telegraph, so this strange US media bias doesn't apply in his case.