The 24 hour engagement.

[disenchanted]

tiki: Good for you. I'm glad you've got your pain to wear as a badge. That must be awesome. I bet it feels really good being right. Hey, this must be like extra laurels on top of all that, huh?

(crap. I was supposed to walk away. Exhibit E on me not good with the thinking things through before responding to the troll.)

I'm not always right, and I know that. And I know that you're angry and hurting and upset right now, and I shouldn't have reacted with anger at you taking offense to my interpretation of what you posted. I'm sorry for that.

As far as badges of pain, we all have those, I think.

Originally Posted by disenchanted

tiki: By all means, if I've got it wrong, keep explaining.

I took this at face value.

[DucksNuts]

Errr...ok

Dis - good plan on the non pushy *when its time, I'd like a chance to talk* approach.


Thing with women (some of them anyway) is we are usually proactive, rather than reactive and we have these things analysed, sorted and stored....by the time you guys even get an inkling that there is an issue.

I hope you stick around here, and best wishes for the outcome you are hoping for...or some closure.

Make good use of your fucked up coupon, the expiry dates around here are foooorever.

[Queen of the Ryche]

Big hugs Dis - Us womenfolk are hard to read - (You menfolk too for that matter) - Agreed on the "no pressure" approach to talking to her - maybe an apology for creating pressure on what was to be a no-pressure weekend (doesn't matter if you were right or wrong)? and a let's take it easy, and try to recreate what we had the week that was so good before it went bad? Good luck - If she really is the one, it will all work out fine.

[daff0dil]

oh man, this is all painful to read

first off, this isn't about tiki and her "issues" whatever they may be, so maybe we can get off that? I thought it was about a broken engagement and finding clarity or closure?

so in that vein:

d: the longer you look for a person to blame or what you did wrong or what she did wrong the longer you will be mired in details that are not, actually, relevant any more.
I understand, you are hurting and you love her and you want to be with her or atleast understand why you can't be.

one day you will probably get all these things, in the meanwhile, I am going to suggest something else:

here is what you know:
-whether or not she wanted to marry you for an hour or a second or a year, at the moment she does not want to, and is so uncomfortable with the thought she doesn't even want to talk to you yet. I would assume she wanted to marry you at some point and that whatever happened had something to do with you and something to do with her.

-she probably will one day want to resume contact, and when she does you can make that easier by briefly letter her know that you still love her, that you are sorry for the way things went down (not sorry you proposed, just sorry that it turned out how it did) and that you are here to listen, when that time comes. if you leave a message to that affect great. that seems perfect. if she picks up I'd tell her the same thing: you love her and are concerned about her and when she's ready to talk you are in need of clarity and closure. in person. remember: at this point, it's about you, not her. you don't know what's going on with her but you know what is going on with you.

-she will never feel good about saying yes than saying no. that just isn't something anyone tends to feel good about unless they are uniquely cruel. so don't hold it against her or find ways as to how or why she did something wrong when she said yes or no. she probably gaved mixed signals. you probably followed them because you wanted to believe them. not because you are deceitful. but you inadvertently misled her in your need.

anyway, that is my ten cents

well, that and about half of you are immature prats far too uncomfortable with your own emotions to witness criticism and conflict with jumping in or exaperbating it with the verbal equivelent of a sledgehammer and a whoopie cushion

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by daff0dil

well, that and about half of you are immature prats far too uncomfortable with your own emotions to witness criticism and conflict with jumping in or exaperbating it with the verbal equivelent of a sledgehammer and a whoopie cushion

back to the loch with yooo, nessie!

[daff0dil]

yeah, I think that's a good idea. I'm finding these swamps a little murky.

nice meeting you all. well, not all of you. but certainly some of you.

[DanaC]

daffodil, that really made sense.

Dis: don't get too hung up on blame, mate. Understanding what went wrong is good, but be kind to yourself.

[BigV]

Hey disenchanted:

Man, I am so sorry to hear your painful news. I think I know how you're hurting, because I have had similar experiences. There's really a lot goin on in this thread...Your original plea for help to make sense of it all, that's my starting point.

I don't know you really, at all, but you suggested you had a number of posts here and I went and reread them. You sound like a good guy. Your posts are clear and serious. You seem very sincere, earnest even. Kinda like me, minus the clarity. I recognize you. So I'll tell you about my thoughts and experience, you take what you want and leave the rest.

Specifically, what I recognize in myself, after reading your story, is an unequal desire in each partner for the other partner. You, unfortunately, desire her more than she desires you. This sucks. You're more invested, your stakes already in the game are higher, your hurt from rejection is greater. (Now, she may be flogging herself without mercy, I don't know. When she shows up here and tells us, I'll recalculate accordingly.) You soared higher, you fell farther, you hit harder. Good for you.

I am not mocking you.

Be yourself, feel deeply. But know (you know now whether you knew before or not) that the risks are great. The rewards are even greater though. This is the first sense making point I wish to emphasize. You're doing it right, at least this part.

But disenchanted, your love is not enough. Not when the other partner does not have a similar commitment to you, and to the relationship. I'm not arguing that the measure of your love needs to be equal to four decimal places, as if love could ever be measured that way. I am saying that your strong desire was enough to prompt you to invite her to join you at the next higher level of commitment. Her desire, not only unequal to yours, does not even meet that minimum threshold. This is important.

Marriage, as you know, is work, shared work. You can not do her part. In this particular situation, your love, no matter how passionate, or how desperate, can not sustain any kind of bond without her active participation. You can't cover for her on this score. You may want to, you may believe you can do it, but you can't. It is easy to miss this because of how love works, how love feels. Countless voices far more eloquent than mine have extolled the magical blindness that accompanies the feelings of love. This is second sense making point I wish to illustrate. You misread her level of commitment to you and your relationship.

To be fair, she missed it too. But that's the thing about love, it has this wonderful positive feedback effect. Probably she has some love for you, and those feelings were amplified by your love for her. It's contagious! The right answer to your Big Question (at that moment) was Yes! But the boost was not enough to carry the day. It was only temporary--the moment had passed--and the remaining level, her level of desire, wasn't enough to justify a Yes! the next morning.

I'm tempted to say that this is sad, and in a way it is sad. A loss like this really hurts, there's no question about that. But I have to confirm the cold comfort offered by many in this thread that it is no small mercy that this decision was reached at this early stage. I have lived this myself. Your belief or understanding of this point in no way alters its fundamental truth. It is a blessing in disguise. A kick-ass (or ass-kicking) disguise to be sure, but an awesome blessing needs an awesome disguise. I do share your pain. I know this hurts and I hate to see you suffer.

As to the communication issue, what do I know? Clearly it went off the rails, soared in a pleasant free fall for a while, then cratered spectacularly on the opposite side of the ravine. Fascinating and horrifying at the same time. Communication is another shared enterprise, like marriage, that can not be done by one. While much of what makes a marriage work depends on communication, the blinding effect of love that makes marriage easier, makes communication harder. Much harder. Much blinder. You heard what you wanted to hear, through the filters of your powerful feelings for her. Same goes for her. Then when the blinding intoxication of love wore off the next day, a review of the minutes from the previous meetings produced a shocked surprise. In my experience, reviewing the transcripts for he said, she said is rarely useful for anything except accumulating more ammunition for more conflict. Don't bother. Start/continue where you are now. Have a short memory. Short and selective. (Yeah, I know that cuts both ways. So sue me.) Recriminations are counter productive. My sense making point: selective hearing under the influence of love, both parties guilty. Move on, move forward.

What else is there? Your future, your immediate future? Ok, I'll bite on that one too. "Giving some space..." zomg. Herculean. And Sisyphean. But noble and worthwhile. If you press, she withdraws. If you chase, she runs. If you pursue, she flees. Proceed accordingly. A friendly suggestion from someone who also feels deeply--pick the maximum distance, psychically, temporally, physically that you tolerate, and double it. Use that as your baseline. Not to get all Johnathan Livingston Seagull on you, but if she wants contact, wants *you*, she'll find you. If you don't hear from her, it's not time yet. Don't despair, this is not permanent, despite how it feels. When you've reached your absolute limit, and then waited some more... you'll cave and contact her. That's ok. You'll learn something and you can recalibrate at that time. It will be ok.

It will be ok. You know this because you yourself said so, and lived this truth based on your previous posts over the years. Yeah, I know it sucks in the meantime. Sorry. At least you have all of us to entertain you while you heal.

[kerosene]

Very lucid and thought provoking, V. I am glad I read that.

[BigV]

Thank you, case, for the compliment.

That post was a long time coming. It sprung from the bullshit meanness among the posters and from my own current and former losses, as much as from an upwelling of compassion for disenchanted's situation.

Been there, done that, got the scars.

[Sundae]

Dis - just to say I went through something similar.
Flew over to New York for Christmas, and my BF practically proposed on the plane. Not down on one knee, no ring, just said that when my divorce came through we should tie the knot.

Five days later I dropped him off at his house - we'd had a lousy flight home, we were both shattered and wanted to crash in our separate beds. He said he'd call me when he woke up. A couple of hours after I expected the call I got a text. Saying he was sorry, he was back with his ex girlfriend. Not to contact him as she was coming to pick him up.

Fool that I was, I went along with the silly rules and just moped. I should have screamed and shouted. I should have demanded an explanation. But I should have realised that this was always going to be a pattern with him, and that he had no interest in me as a long term partner, and once he realised he could get away with that sort of behaviour, it was always likely to happen again. And it did. Year after year.

Let her go.
Get closure any way you can - burn your bridges if it works for you.
If she's the right person for you, if she feels you are right for her, it's up to her to come back.

You might have forced her hand with your proposal. But it's shown you something you might have had a hard time realising otherwise.

[disenchanted]

So I allowed myself to call her. It was after she would've been done with work, so it was 50/50 if she'd answer. Ended up leaving a voicemail.

In under 23 seconds, an amalgamation of apologizing for the way things happened last weekend, letting her know I'm thinking of her, and saying "please let me know when you're ready to talk."

Dunno if it was a good idea or not, but in the big question of whether the door is open or not, I at least had my chance to say "Hey, there is a door."

thanks daff0dil and bigv for the longer responses and the reassuring words from others. Sundae Girl, I'm hoping your wrong, but thank you for looking out for the wellbeing of a stranger...time will tell.


And with that, I'm going to go distract myself for the long weekend so I don't sit here trying to rationalize why it'd be ok to call just one more time or whatever.

[lumberjim]

sometimes people say they want advice, when they really just want to tell you about their problems.

[Shawnee123]

Heh, I was going to say...

You can give all the solicited advice you want, and experience is the hindsight that is 20/20, but until you go through it all yourself all the advice in the world is moot.