Life changing experiences, thought changing experiences

[Number 2 Pencil]

Life changes us.

A few years ago my life went through a major upheaval. I spent time going through a serious bout of mental illness. I was in and out of hospitals for a while, was put on all sorts of pills that didn't help, but finally I stabilized and have been stable for a few years now. Now, in some ways I feel healthier mentally than I was before my illness (my doctor told me some people that go through severe mental illnesses come out with a new understanding of themselves). I take things a little easier and don't stress myself out over small stuff. I feel like more of a whole person and not so 'fragmented.' Some things like my short term memory and my concentration aren't as good as before I think, but they were never very good to begin with. It took a long time to get to this point.

One big thing that happened to me during this transition was that I let go of religion. In some ways, I believe, the magical thinking of religion and spirituality made me susceptible to the delusions I experienced. Thinking that flipping to a random page of the bible and reading a passage and believing that this will have some connection to ones situation seems innocent enough, but when you end up doing this obsessively and thinking god is actually talking to you directly, then you have gone off the deep end.

Surprisingly, I don't think letting go of religion has changed my morality much, except for being pro-choice now and not thinking of sin as having to be forgiven by god. In my day to day life choices I do more or less the same as I did before when I had religion. (Though losing the guilt of being a sinner that can never please god feels terrific I have to say)

My whole frame of reference to the world has shifted in a way I never though would happen. I thought my faith was unshakable, and yet, here I am now without any faith, and feeling good about that fact. My experience of going through all that mental anguish has changed me irrevocably, and despite all the pain I went through, I feel it was somehow worth it to have the clarity of mind that I have now.

My question to the Cellar is: have you ever changed in a way you never imagined would happen? Was it an experience or series of experiences, or a book or a conversation that did it? Did you ever find religion or faith in something, or lose faith in religion or something, and then discover your life totally changed?

[Clodfobble]

Yeah. My kids got sick, and it challenged everything I'd ever believed about science and medicine. Getting them better required me to accept a whole new set of principles I would have utterly mocked before I was neck-deep in it. Like most major life-awakenings, I find it hard not to get on a soapbox about it. Do you find yourself trying to talk people out of their religion now, having lived both sides, or are you content to let them keep your old philosophy?

[HungLikeJesus]

I've long believed that religion is 98% social and 2% mental illness.

[Number 2 Pencil]

I must admit, I do have an urge to get on the soapbox, but at the same time, I know I can be wrong about what I believe, more than anything I am looking for more knowledge and experiences from others that I may understand myself better.

I used to frequent the Cellar before, and discuss philosophical topics (and argue about abortion far more than I care to remember). I remember the Cellar being a supporting bunch with many diverse points of view. In many ways, what I read here helped change me many years ago. The cellar definitely opened me to many different points of views (such as paganism). So I am here again now to talk about life the universe and everything once again.

To be honest I am in the closet about my changes with just about everyone, so I need an outlet to explore my new beliefs. My fiancee (a christian) and I have discussed my life changes and we have come to a point where we respect each other and do not try to change each others beliefs. I don't discuss religion with my parents or own relatives. My friends I just hang out with every so often and my new lack of faith has not been topic of conversation yet, though I do want to bring it up at some point. I think it would be difficult if my future in-laws knew I was not christian judging from comments they have made to me in the past. They live in another state so I don't see them much. I feel dishonest in a way by misrepresenting myself through inaction as being a christian with my in-laws, and I may one day have to tackle that fact with them.

Clodfobble, I think I have reached a point where I believe everyone is on their own journey, and everyone needs to discover for themselves where it takes them. That means I am not trying to convert or deconvert anyone from anything (though I may disagree or agree with some people more than others, as long as they are not hurting anyone else a person's beliefs are their own concern), but I do really want to know the experiences others have been through.

[Undertoad]

We must always find ways to come together despite our various beliefs. We have so much to accomplish and so much love to share. Our beliefs seem to fester hatred and fighting and resistance. You disagree with me about the origin of life, can we at least agree that ice cream is awesome and I wish to give you some of mine so that you can enjoy life with me for a moment.





no we can't, because jesus fucking christ, you're vegan

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Number 2 Pencil

My fiancee (a christian) and I have discussed my life changes and we have come to a point where we respect each other and do not try to change each others beliefs. ... I think it would be difficult if my future in-laws knew I was not christian judging from comments they have made to me in the past.

Sounds like she and her family are pretty serious about religion. This leads me to the question of future kids. Are you OK with your future kids being raised in a religion that you don't believe? If not, is she OK with her kids being raised outside of her religion? This is unfortunately a place where there isn't a lot of room for compromise.

How are you going to explain why you aren't going to church with them without undermining your wife's religion? You can't say that you've decided god's not real. That's like telling a little kid that Santa Claus isn't real. You have to go along with it. Or don't. There's no middle ground.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Number 2 Pencil

I think it would be difficult if my future in-laws knew I was not christian judging from comments they have made to me in the past. They live in another state so I don't see them much. I feel dishonest in a way by misrepresenting myself through inaction as being a christian with my in-laws, and I may one day have to tackle that fact with them.

Meh. Lots of folks do a dog-and-pony show for their in-laws, and for their own parents. It's expected, and most people don't have a big moral quandary about it. On the other hand, as glatt says, your relationship with your wife, especially regarding future children, needs to be honest, and mutually agreed upon. Have that conversation before the wedding.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Excellent point, Glatt, major friction point between different Christian sects, even more so between different religions(including agnostics).

Originally Posted by Number 2 Pencil

... My friends I just hang out with every so often and my new lack of faith has not been topic of conversation yet, though I do want to bring it up at some point.

Why? Unless you're looking to convert/dissuade, or at least debate, there's no reason to. And what if you do debate it, and they convince you you're wrong, or even plant seeds of doubt? Do the old problems come back then? I think smug and happy would be a better choice.

That means I am not trying to convert or deconvert anyone from anything (though I may disagree or agree with some people more than others, as long as they are not hurting anyone else a person's beliefs are their own concern)...

Exactly, everyones relationship, or lack of, with God, is their own business. There's no reason to discuss it unless you're ambushed by Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons. Even then, you can just throw shit at 'em.

Sorry you've had a rough time, but happy you were able to find something to blame it on that wasn't physically attached... that gets messy.

[Number 2 Pencil]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I think smug and happy would be a better choice.

Sorry you've had a rough time, but happy you were able to find something to blame it on that wasn't physically attached... that gets messy.

It is messy anyways, and I don't blame my issues completely on religion, it really was me, it was just that my strict religious beliefs were a contributing factor. (did I come across as smug?) Seeds of doubt I have plenty of already, the only way to explore issues is to talk about them. Sometimes I believe in a creating god, sometimes not so much- usually not so much. Religions on the other hand I tend to seriously doubt, some more than others, but nothing is ever certain.

The issue of kids would be a can of worms, though neither of us plan to have any and are taking precautions, but who knows for the future if one will come up. If one did my in-laws would become a bigger issue and it would probably come out that I am not a christian anymore. Some of them are strongly Baptist and it may cause some division. The manner to raise the child would be the bigger issue, and it would take a great deal of discussion and compromise on both our parts.

[Number 2 Pencil]

Originally Posted by glatt

You can't say that you've decided god's not real. That's like telling a little kid that Santa Claus isn't real. You have to go along with it. Or don't. There's no middle ground.

I really am avoiding the irrevocable act of telling them I am agnostic, and it would be a difficult thing. Eventually one of them will point blank ask me something I will have to either lie or answer truthfully, and while I want to be true to myself, I can easily see being alienated by several members of her family if I am truthful, and that would be quite painful. Again though, they are two states away and I visit them only a few times a year, but it would be an issue.

[plthijinx]

prison. i learned more about myself in prison than ever before in my life. you think you know yourself until you are thrust into an environment where you must survive. especially if you were sent there and are innocent. to go from a life of the pursuit of happiness to the pursuit of survival? this is a side of me that i have not talked about here. sure i tell people yeah prison was no big deal. it was. and there were/are many many mhmra candidates there. you wanted to hear about life changing experiences. here is one of them. before i got locked up i was happy go lucky. when i entered the TDCJ (texas dept. of crim. just.) i was horrifically scared. of the people i was with and of the guards. the conditions were beyond nasty. concrete walls that would sweat when the weather changed. in fact the first dorm i was in was wet 6 months out of the year. i collected myself and cleaned that dorm for 3 months straight because i couldn't stand it anymore. then one night (dorm janitors got the chemicals to clean after lights out to make it easier to clean cuz everyone is supposed to be "racked up") i was cleaning the showers. couldn't help but make noise. well this one big ol black dude half my age got pissed because i was cleaning and making noise and woke him up. he raised Caine. then him and several others "voted" me off the dorm janitor job and opted to clean the dorm themselves each taking turns on a given night. how long did that last? 2 weeks. they begged me to come back to my job. paid me in cigarettes to do so. these mother fu.... were so nasty it took me 3 weeks to catch up to the cleanliness that i had originally obtained. i'm talking when you pour out the mop bucket that the water still looks fresh. not chocolate milky. that is one of many instances that i went through. one day i'll talk about the guy who escaped the same prison not 4 feet in front of me at rec while i was jogging.

[plthijinx]

fuck it. i'm on a roll. so i'm jogging the rec yard. basically it's two basketball courts split by a fence in the middle with gates on both sides. so segregation can be obtained if necessary. mostly the gates stay open but we are locked in the rec yard via the outer fence. anyway, i'm on lap god knows what when all of a sudden this dude sprints in front of me and climbs the inner perimeter fence. i'm still jogging but watching this dude in awe! how the hell why the hell what the fuck is he doing i was thinking....i looked over to the closest guard tower and the guard who shall remain nameless was looking down and talking to inmates on the other rec yard. back to escapee. then the tower over at the trustee yard saw the guy and started firing shotgun warning shots. guard #1 then does the same. then he picked up the .223 and fired a warning shot in front of the meth head trying to escape. methboy, who was a county inmate mind you, more on that later, decided to lay it down. that fuck nut locked us down for a week! oh and they arrested his g/f who was waiting for him down the highway about a half mile. the facility that i was housed in was/is a private facility so they also house county as well as tdcj inmates. here's how the guy escaped. you could strip razors for shaving, take the blades (which had many and i mean many mcgyver uses) and slide them into the locking mechanism of the cage doors and prevent them from securing. all you had to do was use your ID card or a spoon, yes a spoon, handle to open the lock. well in this case the county methhead did just that. now to make himself look like a tdc inmate he bought bleach from a hall worker and bleached his orange and white striped uniform to be white like that of tdc. he then opened the dorm door via ID then used a spoon on the outer cage door and acted like a hall worker to get through 3 doors electronically controlled by a picket guard that sees them on camera. methboy got through 3 doors like i said and the 3rd one being the outside door that led to the rec yard. he then jumped the fence and ran diagonally across or as best he could...he still had to go through one of the two aforementioned gates that were open and i'll be damned if he didn't jump that fence right in front of me. when i saw that i hauled balls! i didn't want to be anywhere near that guy. he did come to find out he did snag his neck on the razor wire on the outer perimeter fence. got to see that close up because the back entrance to medical was just outside my dorm at the time. and that leads me to another story. but not tonight. i'm too freakin tired.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Number 2 Pencil

... (did I come across as smug?)...

No, quite the contrary. People that reach smug are always comfortable. They may not be right, but have no doubts.

[plthijinx]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No, quite the contrary. People that reach smug are always comfortable. They may not be right, but have no doubts.

words spoken from a very wise man.