"Baby It's Cold Outside" is not rapey - Page 3

Flint · 12-11-2018, 02:21 PM

It's rapey if you keep trying to have sex with someone who said they don't want to. Nothing complicated. It's annoying, creepy, and it's rapey because you're hoping to get coerced consent.

Quote:

Also, remember the rules of paying attention to the opposite sex:

1. Be attractive

2. Don't be unattractive

We have noticed that undue attention from attractive people is, typically, not considered "creepy". It is instead considered "flattering".

This is true, because we are biological organisms. It only requires a little bit of situational awareness for most people to operate within these parameters, but some people who are socially-challenged completely miss this stuff. And those people, I think, can get a bad rap for no intentional misbehavior on their own part. And I wish there was more attention paid to this, and sensitivity in general towards people on the autism spectrum, and who for other reasons are socially challenged, but not "bad" people.

Gravdigr · 12-11-2018, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

"bugging them about it" and "being a bit of a creep" is not "rapey". That is "annoying". No, that's sexual harassment. We should have gotten definitions straight before proceeding<--This.

Also, remember the rules of paying attention to the opposite sex:

1. Be attractive

2. Don't be unattractive

We have noticed that undue attention from attractive people is, typically, not considered "creepy". It is instead considered "flattering". Nope, again, harassment. Sexually inappropriate behavior.

Flint · 12-11-2018, 02:27 PM

Just so we're clear on definitions, I believe the common use of the diminutive term "rapey" is synonymous with "sexual harassment" such as an HR department might define it.

Quote:

We have noticed that undue attention from attractive people is, typically, not considered "creepy". It is instead considered "flattering". Nope, again, harassment. Sexually inappropriate behavior.

The character Will Riker on Star Trek: the Next Generation is an example of an generally-considered-attractive man who is sexually harassing as hell. And when I watch the show now (which I do all the time, because it's basically my favorite show), Riker seems problematic to me.

I don't throw the whole show out because of it, and that's a value judgement on my part. So to wrap up the whole thread, for me, I've just proven myself to be doing the same thing as people who still like that song. So, go ahead. I'm doing it so you can do it too. Or, we're both wrong.

Undertoad · 12-11-2018, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Between "rapey" and "annoying"? I would think the overlap is a gradient ... It's not really my place to draw the line.

A gradient is the opposite of a line. Literally

Happy Monkey · 12-11-2018, 05:58 PM

I said I'd do A but not B, and you said A is not B. I agree.

Undertoad · 12-11-2018, 06:16 PM

Quote:

I believe the common use of the diminutive term "rapey" is synonymous with "sexual harassment" such as an HR department might define it.

I couldn't take my eyes off J's tits on our second date, was that rapey?

TBF she was wearing something you wouldn't wear on the job. Well, office jobs.

This whole putting harassment into it is weird. The workplace is the workplace. Dates are dates. They are entirely different conditions.

Flint · 12-11-2018, 06:49 PM

Yeah, I overstated that. Nevermnd. On mobile. Should have said "some of"

Undertoad · 12-11-2018, 08:24 PM

Riker stands, though - Deanna Troi is his co-worker! And a direct report, a subordinate!

And what's more, everyone kind of conveniently forgets this, but they're in a military command structure; where these relationships pose a danger to the entire division and mission.

~ to be clear i say all that unironically ~ Riker is

... Riker

xoxoxoBruce · 12-12-2018, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

Forever, until she indicates that she is physically interested in you. Whether she "is" is open to interpretation, of course, and not everyone is as good at "taking the lead," but even introverts in today's open-and-honest communication environment understand that if you are not giving some signal of positive affirmation, then you're putting the other person in a bad situation where they'd have to make uninformed decisions, and that's uncool towards them. So everybody takes responsibility for communication. Girls will tell you if they're interested. And it doesn't hurt to ask, but if you're literally bugging them about it, you're just being a bit of a creep, right?

So if you ask and she says no, the ball is in her court. And since it isn't a one-sided game, she can actually make plays to score a goal on you.

And the great thing is: you're freed from all that responsibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

Bingo

Whoa, hold on here. I'm not talking about propositioning a secretary at work, or a waitress at a restaurant. I'm talking about dating someone and during the evening she says no. If I ask again a couple hours later at the end of the evening I'm rapey? If I ask again the next time we go out, I'm rapey? Good thing I'm not dating or I'd be a pariah to these whippersnappers.

Evidently the game has changed significantly, saying no was always the ladies prerogative, mine too but that never happened. (Should have once but that was my mistake and I can't blame her.)
Anyway it wasn't bad form to ask as long as there was no force or coercion.

Oh, and drugs/alcohol were allowed, not roofies, but shit done knowing what it was, of their own free will.

Yeah, I know there are nuances of peer pressure and stuff but that hasn't changed since forever, and never will.

Flint · 12-12-2018, 01:02 AM

If you ask at the beginning of the night and she says no, if she changes her mind later SHE. WILL. LET. YOU. KNOW. if SHE wants to do it. If you keep bugging the fuck out of her everytime a stopwatch goes off, you're being an annoying douche. Go home and jack off.

She KNOWS you want to do it. You already told her.

Flint · 12-12-2018, 01:10 AM

The only thing that's really changed here is that women have been given agency to be the initiators. So there's really no need to keep pestering them, because if they want to do it they will let you know. They do that now. It's a better system, it takes the pressure off of you. And the absolute simplest, easiest, and most logical thing about it is that you never need to wonder "whether or not something is being done without consent" because it's real simple-- if she wants to do it she will fucking tell you.

xoxoxoBruce · 12-12-2018, 01:20 AM

Bah, no stopwatch. Earlier while making plans for the evening that would end up at my place or somewhere else, then at the end of the evening, is not by stopwatch, they are natural pauses of opportunity.
If she thinks I'm "being an annoying douche" and says or even telegraphs that, then fuck her, I won't be back. Not because she said no which is probable, expected even, but if she is angered by being asked.

Oh, and if she said yes last week, I'd never assume she wouldn't say no this week. That's always her prerogative, as asking is mine.

Flint · 12-12-2018, 01:28 AM

Well anyways, people get laid MORE now and everybody enjoys it better, because there is no "person in charge of always asking" and women aren't afraid to let you know that they're also horny, and like to fuck just as much as you do. It's a better system because its LESS complicated.

xoxoxoBruce · 12-12-2018, 01:47 AM

No they are not. People are having less sex. Experts are blaming everything from still living in the folk's basement to the internet.

Flint · 12-12-2018, 02:06 AM

It's a better system on it's own merit.

The old "man keeps asking the lady" system was a Rube Goldberg that fell apart under the weight of it's own complexity and arbitrary requirements.

The new system just says, "decide it like people decide any other thing." Equal players, equal agency, and equal stakes. The simplest, least complicated, and most effortless path.

12-11-2018, 05:58 PM	#35
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	I said I'd do A but not B, and you said A is not B. I agree. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

12-11-2018, 06:49 PM	#37
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Yeah, I overstated that. Nevermnd. On mobile. Should have said "some of" __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

12-12-2018, 01:02 AM	#40
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	If you ask at the beginning of the night and she says no, if she changes her mind later SHE. WILL. LET. YOU. KNOW. if SHE wants to do it. If you keep bugging the fuck out of her everytime a stopwatch goes off, you're being an annoying douche. Go home and jack off. She KNOWS you want to do it. You already told her. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

12-12-2018, 01:10 AM	#41
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	The only thing that's really changed here is that women have been given agency to be the initiators. So there's really no need to keep pestering them, because if they want to do it they will let you know. They do that now. It's a better system, it takes the pressure off of you. And the absolute simplest, easiest, and most logical thing about it is that you never need to wonder "whether or not something is being done without consent" because it's real simple-- if she wants to do it she will fucking tell you. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

12-12-2018, 01:20 AM	#42
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Bah, no stopwatch. Earlier while making plans for the evening that would end up at my place or somewhere else, then at the end of the evening, is not by stopwatch, they are natural pauses of opportunity. If she thinks I'm "being an annoying douche" and says or even telegraphs that, then fuck her, I won't be back. Not because she said no which is probable, expected even, but if she is angered by being asked. Oh, and if she said yes last week, I'd never assume she wouldn't say no this week. That's always her prerogative, as asking is mine. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

12-11-2018, 08:24 PM	#38
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Riker stands, though - Deanna Troi is his co-worker! And a direct report, a subordinate! And what's more, everyone kind of conveniently forgets this, but they're in a military command structure; where these relationships pose a danger to the entire division and mission. ~ to be clear i say all that unironically ~ Riker is ... Riker

12-12-2018, 01:28 AM	#43
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Well anyways, people get laid MORE now and everybody enjoys it better, because there is no "person in charge of always asking" and women aren't afraid to let you know that they're also horny, and like to fuck just as much as you do. It's a better system because its LESS complicated. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

12-12-2018, 01:47 AM	#44
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	No they are not. People are having less sex. Experts are blaming everything from still living in the folk's basement to the internet. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

12-12-2018, 02:06 AM	#45
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	It's a better system on it's own merit. The old "man keeps asking the lady" system was a Rube Goldberg that fell apart under the weight of it's own complexity and arbitrary requirements. The new system just says, "decide it like people decide any other thing." Equal players, equal agency, and equal stakes. The simplest, least complicated, and most effortless path. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

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