London Bombing

[mrnoodle]

GAh, breaking my self-imposed gag order.

BigV, this isn't about "people getting along" or "really understanding each other." It's a clash of very deeply held, almost hardwired values. To suggest to a devout follower of Islam that he overlook our R-rated movies, blasphemy, materialism, and support of the hated Jew while simultaneously letting his wife take off her veil, uncover her legs and get a job, just so we can stop fighting each other...it's ludicrous. Fighting the evil that we represent is what gets him into heaven. You think you can counter that with platitudes?

Are there Muslims who would welcome watered-down Islam? Sure, just as there are Christians who would prefer that their religion be no more influential than a verse on a greeting card. But until you convince the true islamic believer to water down their religion until it's palatable to the unbelievers (as we've done with Christianity in America), the answer to "can't we all just get along?" is, "No, we can't."

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Previous to that are the attacks you can't blame on Iraq.

When you say "Iraq", which Iraq war do you mean?

[Undertoad]

The one you referred to.

[warch]

But its tricky.
I find it hard to get to "really" know someone who actions, laws indicate his or her belief that I am a whore and an infidel that needs to die or at least be beaten, raped, and splashed with acid.

Thats like telling Emmet Till he just needed to be more respectful to the store owner.

I work with muslims, mostly its that 2nd generation immigrant kid that's stuck between cultures- mostly Sudanese and Somalian. Get that girl educated! Thats my subversive act. Give her Nancy Drew books!

I live one block from a Mosque. Again, recently immigrated African Muslims. We all shop at the Deli owned by the Lebanese Christian guy. I know there are good people, I also no there are sick and sad and powerful ideas out there and its a complex thing.

[jaguar]

because you know, there's like, no Christian fundies that take up arms or anything noodle. And it's not like the vast majority of muslims particularly in western countries are moderate or anything. Yahuh. Fucking halfwit.

I've got a friend who is a fairly devout muslim woman, about my age, wears a tight back headscarf and long sleeves/trouser legs, looks gorgeous, unless someone told you why you'd think it was just fashion. She's studying law at a top London uni, hopes to become a judge one day. But don't let modern reality get in the way of your thinly viled racism and hatred, just keep beating that wardrum, I hope it makes you feel real good.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

When you say "their country", which one do you mean?--clip

Well, according to our administration, ground zero for terrorist is Iraq. I think Iraq is a fine place to start. Why not let the citizens of that country do as they wish. Why would I want to

Originally Posted by Undertoad

get Islamists to reform their society?

anyway?

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by dar512

They don't have to. They've got oil.

The real solution is long term, but I think it's what happened in Russia:

Give them all cable tv and internet access and eventually their kids will demand western culture.

Tou fucking ché

Not to mention The U.S. and its protegé: China.

"I'll have two orders of western culture please, super size them, and a side of me first."

[Skunks]

mrnoodle,

I realize it strongly supports your case to say that, paraphrasing, Islam advocates destroying Jews. And I concede that there are certainly a lot of Muslims who dislike Jews. Probably a lot in Palestine.

But, as we've covered a lot in this thread, there's a difference between individuals who identify with a group holding an opinion and the doctrine which defines that group holding an opinion. And, although I skipped a few hundred posts in the middle, I believe you're saying that Islam, as a doctrine, is anti-Semitic. Not just particular Muslims.

If that's the case, I'm very curious as to what you base this statement on. A professor of mine once said that there really isn't just one Islam, but more a bunch of different islams. Sunni and Shi'ite, yeah, and enough subdivisions of that that it's really a difficult thing to count.

So what have you read that makes you think Islam hates Jews? Because I simply don't agree.

[footfootfoot]

The thing about anger is it is ALWAYS righteous. Get yourself really worked up, I mean literally seeing red, throbbing liver angry.

Then just stop and see how you feel physically.

I bet you feel fucking ALIVE! All systems GO! BOO YAH! That anger is a self stimulated drug, it feeds your ego and lets you know that you are a real live force to be reckoned with, (motherfucker optional).

I know when I heard about the London bombing I was so angry I wanted to deport every one even remotely towel head looking to some desert where we'd turn the sand to glass. Make Dresden seem like a cool breeze.

What would that do? Anger, hatred et al would still be right where it has always resided. It is a seed that grows in our hearts.

Can I love the terrorists? Not hardly, especially when I feel like chopping my neighbor's dog to pieces and beating her to death with one of its legs when she lets it shit on my lawn and tries to walk away nonchalantly.

But what frosts me more than anything is how our various governments and media use these events as get rich quick schemes. Pearl Harbor wasn't the first time a government has used it citizens as pawns, it won't be the last. What made 9/11 so disturbing was that the pawns were civilians.

It might be informative to anyone who cares about 9/11 to read Michael Ruppert's work on the subject. Two websites:
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
http://www.copvcia.com/

He has a book called "Crossing the Rubicon"

None of what he has to say is for the faint of heart or those who really just want to feel righteous and point the finger at towel heads.

Despite all the extremely well thought out and heartfelt responses to this thread I don't feel any closer to a solution to the problem. I sure haven't added anything. I just feel that it is important to own our responsibility for the anger we create and keep alive.

In an odd way this thread is realted to the belly flop IotD. The anger is like the belly flop, we're all gettin wet, we think it may be fun to jump in and try out our splash, and we all keep gettin wet.

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

The thing about anger is it is ALWAYS righteous. Get yourself really worked up, I mean literally seeing red, throbbing liver angry.

Then just stop and see how you feel physically.

I bet you feel fucking ALIVE! All systems GO! BOO YAH! That anger is a self stimulated drug, it feeds your ego and lets you know that you are a real live force to be reckoned with, (motherfucker optional)

Yeah, anger DOES have that aspect to it, doesn't it?

At this very moment I am in a state of sheer rage over something going on in my personal life and the 4th of July don't have nothing on me! I am furious and rightfully so! My anger does pinwheels and shooting stars across the heavens and it is just! Oh, so just! When that rollcall up yonder is finally shouted out, there's not a doubt in my mind that God and Jehovah and Buddha and Mohammed will all thunder out in unison, "Marichiko, you are so right, and, Asshole, you are SO wrong!"

(*sigh*) A truely encouraging, uplifting thought! We now return you to your regularly scheduled life...

So, lets just say, hypothetically, that since I am already on the side of the avenging angels, I decide that Asshole's entire family is as wrong as he is and I bet anything they're up to no good, too, and besides Buddha whispered in my ear one night to do it, and I noticed that this one person Asshole is related to is very unkind to his dog, so one night I sneak out and cut the brake lines on his car, and next day he has a horrible accident. Not to be outdone, Asshole's 3rd cousin twice removed vows vengence for this act, so he slips some arsenic in my dear old Aunt Elsa's afternoon tea, and we're having fun now!

See where I'm going? Its that same old truism, hatred only begets hate.

When will we ever learn?

[wolf]

Originally Posted by jaguar

because you know, there's like, no Christian fundies that take up arms or anything noodle.

Lessee. How many Christian Fundies have blown up anything lately? (you're not allowed to count Bush, as I suspect you want to ...)

Eric Rudolph is pretty much it (2 dead, 120 or so injuries in multiple incidents), and then there were two guys who shot abortion clinic doctors in separate incidents, Paul Hill (the first one, in FL), and James Kopp (the guy who shot the doc with a scoped rifle in NY).

Posting the 10 Commandments in a public place isn't terrorism. Yet.

How many followers of the Prophet have blown something up?

Do I think that this is behavior condoned by the majority of Muslims? I like to think not. I hope not, anyway. I've worked with quite a few Muslims, as well as non-Muslim Arabs (including Egyptian and Syrian Christians) and know that they aren't out to get me/us. They are as confused as we are over what's happened.

[jaguar]

There have been 8 deaths related to abortion doctors or clinics since '93. There have been many more attacks and attempted murders. My point is that there are militant, violent and irrational elements of both religions but that most followers of both are perfectly reasonable and moderate people.

[wolf]

8. Sad, but, ooooh! (that's meant as a sarcastic sort of "ooooh")

Looking at things without doing math I think that the percentages are very different when you look at Christians:Christian Terrorists vs. Muslims:Muslim Terrorists.

The body counts sure as hell are different.

Just slightly offside of this topic ... who else thinks the British Broadcast News ban on the word "terrorist" is absurd?

[jaguar]

differences in number of conflicts too. There is a reason. Chechnya is probably the classic example. Chechnya is a nationalist conflict that became a flashpoint for islamic fundamentalism, war breeds war. The current crop is Islamic militants were mostly trained during the afghan conflict, their side being heavily propped up by the US. The enxt generation are being trained in Iraq and once again, Afghanistan.

Haven't seen many warzones in the bible belt recently.

[mrnoodle]

(raises hand)

and they've retroactively edited their initial coverage of the bombing.

Of course there are moderate muslims. but they're not in charge. I'm not beating a wardrum, either (at least not in that post). I'm saying that we are dealing with a culture that values martyrdom, and that western civilization has always been a very appealing target for that martyrdom, because it represents everything that is hateful to a follower of Islam.

As a christian, I am opposed to lots of things that I consider morally wrong. But I don't strap on a bomb and detonate it on a bus. Who knows? Maybe I would, if my culture had pounded it into my head since birth that suicide bombing was a glorious and honorable thing to do. Or if I was so poor that I did it for the bounty that my country's leader would pay my family.

Just because the terrorist enemy doesn't wear matchy uniforms and have a big Kremlin to point to as the embodiment of the values it represents doesnt' make it any less organized, or any less widespread and dangerous. We should still approach it militarily, because it's far too big for criminal court. We couldn't bring the Nazis to task for their war crimes until they had been gutted militarily.