baltimore

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

Toad,

“your basic philosophy”

What is my ‘basic philosophy’?

It was clear in context, which remains available for you to read harder.

“I assure you it doesn't.”

I disagree, but: as you like.

Stated feelings are not really up for disagreement. "I'm not angry with you." "Yes you are." Well, fuck, where do we go from there? "No I'm not." "Augh, you've got me there." Nice thread we're having?

[Lamplighter]

“I think I am presenting your own arguments to say the isolated individual
is impotent against the misdeeds of law enforcement.”

I’m sorry you feel impotent (as an individual), Lamp. Explains a lot, though.

When your arguments fail, divert to non-sequiturs and ad hominems.

[henry quirk]

Toad,

"It was clear in context"

What is clear 'in context': you have no clue what I believe (you think you do, but you don't). So: be clear, state what you think my philosophy is.

And: no, I won't be stating it for you. You accuse me of incoherence based on 'my philosophy'. The burden is on you to back it up by stating what you think 'is' my philosophy.

If you can't or won't: your claim of my incoherence is null and void.


"Stated feelings are not really up for disagreement."

Of course they are. I believe you find me distasteful. You claim otherwise. I don't believe you.

We disagree.

However, there's no profit for me or you in dickin' around with it so -- as I say up thread -- 'as you like.'

[henry quirk]

Lamp,

My point: I, as individual, don't feel impotent.

You, perhaps, do.

Now, beat that drum some more.

[Happy Monkey]

So far the violent rioters who deserve universal condemnation have killed fewer people than were killed in the incident that immediately triggered the protest. Let alone the incidents and atmosphere that turned that incident into a trigger.

[Undertoad]

HQ: They are burning down their own pharmacy. That is crazy.
UT: It's not their pharmacy.
HQ: In the context of what I'm saying, "their" means the pharmacy in their town.
UT: But if a pharmacy was burning in "your" neighborhood you wouldn't give a shit. That's your basic philosophy: your responsibility absolutely ends at your own self-interest.
HQ: Unless it was the only pharmacy available, in which case I would try to put out the fire, because it was in my self-interest.

~

UT: Look on television, HQ is simply letting his pharmacy burn.
HQ's nephew: Why would he do that? That is crazy.*
UT: I don't know Beast, but by his own definition, it's HIS pharmacy, in HIS town, and he's letting it burn.
HQ's nephew: That is crazy.
UT: You know what's crazier? HQ has described you as HIS child.
HQ's nephew: Oh no! Would Uncle allow me to burn?
UT: It appears so, if you were not in his self-interest.
HQ's nephew: Gosh!** How can I stay in his self-interest?
UT: I guess you should remain the only child available.





*HQ's nephew does not use contractions.
**HQ's nephew is from a 1950s family TV comedy.

[BigV]

I think Sending in The Moms is a good idea. I think The Moms have Authority, and that's respected. The mom in the picture, she's using Power to accentuate, or remind her son of that Authority.

It's possible. No. It's NECESSARY to send in the moms (and dads and aunties and uncles, etc) for just the reason that xoB and others have expressed. The respect for our social contract, the fabric of our communities (because the police are an important and inextricable thread in that fabric) is learned by the youngsters, who become older, but it's learned by the observations they make of all the things around them. What the parental figures do and say. What they see at school and in the neighborhood, including the behavior of the cops. What (crap) they see on the tv and videos and movies. What they see their friends doing and what the people they'd like to be their friends are doing. All that and more is combined to produce the net result and the net behaviors.

Who has the greatest influence on that result? The parents. In some extreme cases, the influence of the parents can outweigh all the other factors combined, but usually not. Usually it's just the single biggest force. And even the parent's input is mixed. There isn't a parent here who can say their work as a parent has been flawless. Sometimes it's a contradiction, saying this and doing that. What does a youngster make of that mixed message? The same is true with the larger pool of influences, they're mixed. Training the kids on what to look for, what to shoot for, and how to discern the good influences from the bad, the helpful from the hurtful, indeed, right from wrong, that's parent-gold.

The mom in the picture is just reminding her son right from wrong. NOW, maybe the kid gets beaten every day for any goddamn thing. Could be. And that would be fucked up, that would be wrong, that would train the kid that the world's to be feared and that rioting is not an unreasonable approach. WTF do I know? I am just looking at one picture, one instant. Naturally, I'm reading a LOT into the picture.

But even though the cops aren't social workers, and they're not, much of the shit they have to deal with would be best handled by using the tools of social workers. Cops have lots of tools, they pick and choose what they think is the best tool for the job all the goddamn time. When they get it right, woo hoo. Not even a cookie, not for doing your chosen job right. When they choose wrong, bad stuff happens. And that wrong choice is sometimes NOT putting on the social worker hat and instead drawing a gun or a baton.

A riot is not the time for social work--the tools needed there are the ones in the riot gear kit. But that's only because as gvidas has eloquently pointed out (and quoted) the authority of the police is gone.

[BigV]

hq, I don't think you're being serious when you respond that way.

I said what I said in the context of the posts and the articles linked to in the posts. You may go back and read or reread them to help you understand. Also, I'm not suggesting that groups are monoliths. But there are groups, "black americans", "white americans", "rioters", these are just a few recently discussed examples.

As for grouping and groups, it's obvious to me, and many others, that groups are a useful organizing concept. I'm sure you knew that.

[henry quirk]

V,

Yeah, I was pokin' at you.

But, seriously...

Surely, there are blacks who see police as whites (supposedly) do?

Surely, there are whites who see police as blacks (supposedly) do?

It's not groupings I object to but the assumption that ALL of a group feel or think the same way.

*shrug*

[fargon]

henry, Give it a rest, the riots are over. Now is the time for rebuilding. And I think that Mother did the right thing.

[BigV]

thanks for the new link. still, what do you wonder about?

[xoxoxoBruce]

THAT, was sarcasm.

[Gravdigr]

I wonder why the life of a black person taken by a black person has less value than the life of a black person taken by a white person.

I wonder why black people do not riot when Boko Harem kidnaps 100 or so black children.

Why are the black people not rioting about all the black people dying all over the world?

Why aren't these people who are rioting not running for public office in order to change the community they live in?

Why are they not making an effort to stay felony-free so that they can run for public office and effect change?

[henry quirk]

Toad,

“My point stands.”

As I say (and will probably say again and again): as you like.

#

Grav,

“Why?”

Mostly, I think, cuz there’s no profit to be had for folks in the American Race Industry.

#

Fargon,

“the riots are over”

For the moment.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Gravdigr

...Why aren't these people who are rioting not running for public office
in order to change the community they live in?
...

I believe politics have played a significant role…where [D] = Democrat, [R] = GOP

[D] LBJ signed the Civil Rights AND Aid to Dependent Children laws
Consequence: Job training, health clinics, $ added to family budgets
Consequence: US debt increased

[R] GOP adopted “Southern Strategy”
Consequence: Gerrymandering
Consequence: myths of voter fraud/ID to reduce Black voting
Consequence: White flight from cities and urban schools

[R] Congress prohibits federal $-support if an adult male lives in the house.
Consequence: adult males pushed out of the household.
Consequence: Black fathers were removed from their family
Consequence: Black children lose adult-relationships with their fathers

[R] Congress reduced federal $-support for “child care” and “job training”
Consequence: Single women were frozen in place as “Head of Household”
Consequence: Unemployed single mothers/children live in poverty

[D] Clinton established new Drug and Mandatory Sentencing laws
Consequence: Police concentrate on arresting black males on felony charges
Consequence: 1 in 3 Black men go to prison sometime in their lifetime

Consequence: Police militarize, move to police cars, stop “community policing”,
Consequence: Police change strategy from “Protect and Serve” to “we-vs-them”
Consequence: Police establish police unions and “Police Bill of Rights”
Consequence: Police essentially immune from prosecution

[R] GOP governors reduced business taxes by shifting $ from social programs
[R] GOP governors reduced property taxes by shifting $ from education
Consequence: White flight from cities and public schools
Consequence: Increased class size in public schools
Consequence: Public schools fail in mission to educate

[R] GOP established “No Child Left Behind”
Consequence: Teachers “teach for test”, not for education
Consequence: White flight from public schools to private and charter schools

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