The 24 hour engagement.

[Stormieweather]

You've said you thought it through thoroughly and spent a lot of time getting to the point you did in order to ask for the commitment of marriage.

Apparently, she did not put the same effort into her answer.

I think, if I were you, that I would have very serious doubts about a future with this person, even IF she were to change her mind (once again).


Stormie

[Aliantha]

dis, I think no matter who you talk to, they'll have scars. I really don't think the people here are anything out of the ordinary.

What makes me think you're probably not going to get lucky and have her running back to you is simply that you seem to be in different places emotionally, and regardless of whether she's the right one for you or not, it's obviously the wrong time for her. I'm not really of the mind that there's someone else. I think there could be many reasons for her not being ready to commit to you, and maybe it'd be nice if she would share those reasons, but it doesn't seem like she's about to so far.

You never know what might happen, but how could you trust what she says in the future after the way she's treated you now? Do you think she'll ever be ready?

I think that's what people have been trying to say.

I know if I'd met my husband even just a few months before I did, we'd never have ended up married because I just wasn't ready then. It can happen like that.

[disenchanted]

aliantha: It's a salient point, but I started this thread the night after I last saw her and we're at just over the two week point now. The rush to "Yup, she's over you/you should move on" started within hours.

It's not like I sat stewing on this for six months first.

Maybe I'll be more amiable to joining the "move on" crowd at the one month marker.

[Aliantha]

Fair enough. I think it's fine to give yourself and her some time anyway. From my honest point of view, I think if you ask someone to marry you and they're not ready for it, they probably never will be. I only say this because I think that when you meet that person who's right for you, you just know it almost from the start even if you do take time to actually go through the formalities.

I hope that makes sense. I'll leave you to it now. I think you're doing well. I'm still sorry things didn't work out how you wanted them to. You seem like a really nice man. For what it's worth, she must be crazy not to see that.

[monster]

dis, why did you post originally? did you want guidance or sympathy? You asked for guidance -we came through. If you just wanted sympathy, you shoud've said....

It is over, you know it now. You surely didn't expect the cellar to sugar-coat that?

[disenchanted]

And thus is the nature of my hope, right or wrong, it seemed like we were both on track for marriage from a very early state. The more we talked about it and the more we let all those external doubts in, the more complicated it got.

I chose not to mention that she'd turned to her family a few months back, and they piled on all sorts or religious material (catholic, mostly) to get her...er..."prepared"?, and so in January when she said "Hey, it's really important to me that we be chaste from now on until we get married", I said "Ok, I don't understand it, but I'll respect it" (Seriously, I'm supposed to say "Hey, you don't get a say in that.")

I'm having to sort that all out in my head. Various friends, associates and cronies have expressed some shock that I didn't walk away from the relationship then, but I thought I was doing the right thing, and her insistence that we were preparing ourselves through her ritual was part of what made it so easy to blind myself to any negatives.

Granted, significant midstream religious change has already been added to my list of future warning signs, but I had this mountain of "Yeah, this is clear to both of us." which got held back by a sudden "Um...well....let's wait", and then it felt like the tidal wave was back on...of course it was easy to think we'd passed a minor obstacle and were back on track. And as I told Tiki at least a few times in this thread, I really got blinded by that. Avalanche, avalanche, small ridge, avalanche....we broke through some wall to fall off some cliff.

So yeah, I'm having a really hard time with this, and while some of the crowd might be right that she's stringing me along for her convenience, I just want to hang on to it for a bit longer. Because this wasn't a vetting process like some interview. Because this wasn't me trying to trick her into long-term commitment.

I'm a little lost and confused and right now I can't see whether or not leaving a door open or moving on is the best thing to do.

I'm glad that everyone here has offered their opinions. It's well appreciated, even if I've not been agreeable to all of them, and even if I'm still searching for a little more clarity.

[disenchanted]

monster: I'm just looking for any voice that can help me make sense of this at this point. More guidance than sympathy, I'm just saying the guidance has been largely one-sided. Maybe that means something, maybe I've not given enough background information, I don't know.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Granted, significant midstream religious change has already been added to my list of future warning signs,...

That's more common than you would think and I don't think it's necessarily a red flag, because I've seen it happen several times and after the wedding they just reverted back to their old selves.

I could even be she got cold feet, not about you, but the prospect of the religious aspect her family heaped on the wedding.

[disenchanted]

well, I guess, in fairness, I didn't really specify much when I said "rough patch". Maybe that'll color things a bit? Maybe it'll give some fodder to tell me I'm blind.

Couple months into the relationship: Some offhand word's got her convinced I'm looking to part ways. I admit to her that I'd been thinking more about a lifetime together. She tells me I should wait at least until the one year mark. Ok, then.

One year mark comes around. She gets a bit tossed during our anniversary date. I take her home and go back to my place. Next morning she shows up early freaked out about how I'm taking that.

A month or so later I figure I'd been asking lots of people about marriage, but not talking much with her about it, and it dawns on me that it'd effect her more than anyone else, so we have a serious conversation.

January hits and she hits me with the "let's be chaste"

March comes along, we go out to dinner for her friend's birthday. Some guy is hitting on her. I'm uncomfortable, but amongst all her friends, decide that she can stand up for herself and I'll not be the loudmouthed jerk. On the drive home, she indicates I chose wrong. Day later, we're talking and I ask if it bugged her so much, why did she keep talking to the guy? Argument.

Don't talk much for the rest of the week. Meet up that weekend, talk some things out. Marriage is mentioned again in passing.

Things get better, for a time.

Stupid arguments start becoming more frequent. She doesn't come over to my place anymore, citing the chastity thing and "temptation"

Serious conversations happening all the time now. She finally tells me that she doesn't want to go on the weekend away that we'd been planning as "THE WEEKEND", says it was like we'd broken up a few weeks ago and were just dealing with the aftermath. I tell her "What if we take the pressure off the table and just have a nice weekend away?"

Suddenly things are like the best of times again. I get stupid. I'm on the phone with my friends every day trying to figure out what to do. All pieces of advice sound good. Freak out thinking that I should just go through with it and stop whining so much.

And here we are.

That'll probably reinforce some opinions that it's time to move on. It's just hard for me to see that right now. Maybe I missed something. Maybe it's some dumb test to see if I can give her her space. I just don't know.

[DanaC]

I don't like to get to involved in relationship reading. Wtf am I to know about successful/unsuccessful relationships, right? But, I have to say, my hackles rise reading this one. She sounds either confused (run, run for the hills) or a games player (run even faster). Dis, I don't know you. And no matter what you type here, there is no way you can ever fully explicate what went on, not in this medium. So, please forgive me if this out of line:

You deserve better than this. She has played (consciously, or unconsciously) on your emotional state in an extremely controlling way. You got it wrong at the party? Sounds like you assessed that she was amongst friends and could handle herself. If she was having difficulty with the guy she coulld have easily moved across to where you were in the room full of people. You failed a test, clearly. Tests are like that. They're testing. Do you really want to live under constant testing? Perhaps she wanted you to be jealous? Well, jealousy feels awful. Why would she want you to feel awful? Perhaps she wanted your protection. But, from what? Must you always be on guard for non-dangerous threats which might provoke this need? The end result, whatever the nature of the test, is that the person being tested is regulating their behaviour and responses to accord with the other person's plan. A party is supposed to be a pleasant and relaxing thing. Convivial and fun. Not an assault course or an examination.

The onus on you to fall in with changing expectations is not fair. Nor is it conducive to an emotionally equal relationship. It is, unfortunately, the basis of a lot of relationships. At some point the person being tested has to make a choice. Either they dig in their heels and say, this is who I am; these are my natural and instinctive responses, take it or leave it....or they must alter who they are and establish new patterns and responses in line with the other person's expectations.

Be careful with yourself Dis. Be wary of giving up yourself in order to gain someone who will absorb you. You are worth more than that.

[Undertoad]

I've already voted game player, but I'm willing to consider batshit insane. Batshit religious insanity is still batshit insanity.

Physical intimacy forges a tighter emotional bond. Lack of it tears a couple apart. To suggest you should not be intimate is a deep betrayal to the relationship.

It also suggests that she is not capable of serious intimacy. It's not that she's not that into you -- she's not that into anybody.

How is her relationship with her father?

[classicman]

Very good reply Dana, you should delve into this stuff more often..

Dis - One piece of information I haven't seen. How old are you guys? From your last two posts she seems emotionally immature, but then again, I'm an old fart.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Post #6.

[classicman]

thanks Bruce. I missed that. Seems about right. She is not mature enough. I know some people her age who are more into partying and that whole scene. Could be she just isn't ready to settle down, afraid of the totality and finality of marriage, getting overwhelmed by the thoughts of marriage/house/kids..... The influence of her family and their religious views/customs/expectations...
All that being said. I'd still walk. She seems to be jerkin your chain.

Lemme put it this way. Focus on you and your life and what you enjoy and all that for a bit. Just get in tune with "you."

[daff0dil]

This is much more clear than a "rough patch" to me. When you wrote you had a rough patch it could have ranged from anything from "I beat her" to "we both had the flu and it made us ornery" to "Working out cold feet"

What you are describing is a recipe for failure. I know. I know. I am coming off as one of the many nay sayers in this group, but I'll clarify:

Why I understand the request for chastity was based on some deeply held religious beliefs, and, most likely, a healthy dose of guilt, it strikes me as a very bad idea. I agree that physical intimacy creates bonds hard to describe or quantify. A brief break from sex in a relationship can stoke a fire or make things more exciting. But I think a long break from intimacy when intimacy was previously had just causes tension, confusion and in the end eliminates one of the main bonding activities a couple engage in, with frequency.

I am going to be generous and assume her desire to pursue this path with you was of pure intention, with the intent to make your eventual nuptuals more "special". It was probably not meant to be a game or a tactic.

But in the end I suspect this change created a mounting wall of tensions that could not be dispelled and probably hurt way more than it helped.

I also suspect that this girl is insanely confused and incapable, at the moment, of really knowing what she wants and believes.
She is a romantic, as well, from what you describe, which can beautiful, but also can create difficult and volatile situations.

I guess what I am trying to say is: You need to take a long long time to say goodbye. This will be true whether she provides perfect closure or never speaks to you again. I am of the mind that this girl, while possibly right for you in some ways, is not ready for commitment in any way. That being said, I am also of the mind that this probably will not pan out the way you wish it to.
But that doesn't mean, 2 weeks after the end, you have to be ready to move on. Ofcourse you aren't. Hold tight, process on your own, if you can afford it, maybe see a relationship therapist on your own to process your feelings so that you can move on to your next relationship with less baggage, or in the event this pans out in some way, work with her in ways that provide clarity and avoid this outcome again.

My final thought is also this: when you posted your initial posts things were too fresh. I suspect you were looking for absolution and a certain level of reassurance that you had done all you could and that she might come back to you.

Nothing is ever as cut and dried as that.

So here is my version of that, as this situation is still super fresh.
You acted like a human being in love with someone who had mounting levels of confusion presenting. You wanted to believe that if she saw how good you were together (on your weekend, which seemed to be going well) that realization would overpower her intense confusion and make her ready for marriage, but it didn't.

I think, very simply, it wowed her with it's romance (did I mention she was romantic) but once that overwhelming moment was gone, it also made her finally realize how very not ready for marriage she was.

I'd like to believe that this understanding, coupled with the realization that you were very ready, was probably the impetus to break it off, ultimately. That while she might have felt betrayed or blindsighted, what she really felt was shock and fear that she was involved with someone she loved but would continuously hurt if she stayed involved with them.

There.