Anger Over Mohammed Cartoon

Welcome to the Cellar, UG! :p

[Aliantha]

If I'm not antagonizing the majority, then I'm not doing my job right.

Wolf, I think there's a difference betwen antagonizing the majority and speaking up for the minority.

Bruce, if you want sources I'll give you sources, however, we all know there's a source to prove or disprove every argument. Sometimes even in the same article. *See post #90 and #91.

Jaguar and Beestie, is that the best you can do? Make ridiculous suggestions?

I think it's been pointed out already that there are extremists in any religion and I don't condone these actions by anyone regardless of what God they worship.

What I do object to is a gung-ho attitude displayed by so many people of the Christian faith who think it's a fore-gone conclusion that we're going to win this campaign we're currently on. Just because Christianity has been a signature of 'civilized society' for a couple of thousand years doesn't make it the only truth.

While people in the west have condemned countries in the middle east for their holy wars for the last hundred years and far beyond, it seems to me that the 'coalition of the willing' has embarked on their own 'holy war' against a religion they find threatening to their own way of life.

Of course, we're not in Iraq because of Islam are we? Aren't we there to bring democracy and find WMD? Hmmm...not sure now. Maybe it's to find Bin Laden...but apparently he's hanging out somewhere else now. Gosh...I really can't remember. Let's just see if I can read this book while it's upside down...

[lookout123]

Hmmm...not sure now. Maybe it's to find Bin Laden...but apparently he's hanging out somewhere else now.

apparently one personality wasn't enough for tw?

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Jaguar and Beestie, is that the best you can do? Make ridiculous suggestions?

No, but for some reason I'm not sure anything else would work.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Hmmm...not sure now. Maybe it's to find Bin Laden...but apparently he's hanging out somewhere else now.

I've always known where bin Laden is. He hiding out in a closet with Idi Bitty Amin (of Uganda) at the Conehead's house. You know. Those creatures from France. Just another reason to hate the French.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

What I do object to is a gung-ho attitude displayed by so many people of the Christian faith who think it's a fore-gone conclusion that we're going to win this campaign we're currently on. Just because Christianity has been a signature of 'civilized society' for a couple of thousand years doesn't make it the only truth.

Don't make the mistake of assuming everyone that's condemning the Islamic rioters are Christians.
You don't have to be religious to loathe hoodlums, thugs and arsonists.

[fargon]

Originally Posted by wolf

If I'm not antagonizing the majority, then I'm not doing my job right.

Equality and equal rights are not just about the desires of the majority.

Islam is the "Fastest Growing" religion (although there are a few others that would dispute that) because their objective is to conquer, not to convince.

Am I reading things right here, btw? I'm getting the impression that somehow Muslims burning down foreign embassies is somehow Bush's fault. I just want to make sure I'm picking up the proper (misguided) subtext.

Sometimes the fault actually is in THEM, and not US, yah?

In my own unguided thinking, you are in the majority. Silent or otherwize.

[vsp]

<a href="http://www.mohammeddance.com">Latest salvo: fired.</a>

[FallenFairy]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I
While people in the west have condemned countries in the middle east for their holy wars for the last hundred years and far beyond, it seems to me that the 'coalition of the willing' has embarked on their own 'holy war' against a religion they find threatening to their own way of life.

OK I am late to this party - but I read along.... my exception to the above quote and other of your posts is that I keep getting the feeling that it is only Christians who are condeming the actions of those rioters and terrorists, and that it is only Christians who are fighting the war in Iraq... not so -
the American people, as a whole, are fighting and condeming the thugs for their actions...including Jews, Buddists, Islamists, Hindis, Atheists, Agnostics, and even those woefully (IMO) misunderstood believers in the Church of the eternal Faming Goat & Boatswain ministries....we are NOT comdeming the extremists for being MUSLIM - we ARE condeming their actions....

Please keep in mind that it is not the MUSLIM religion that is being opposed... it's the terroristic mayhem a group of people who are Muslim uphold and then attribute their actions to the Will of GOD -

Originally Posted by Aliantha

the 'coalition of the willing' has embarked on their own 'holy war' against a religion they find threatening to their own way of life.

Um... color me stupid but I swear it was a extremeist Muslim sect of terrorists that came to AMERICA and killed innocents- we are just cleaning up the mess...

Attempted Iraqi Attacks on U.S. Posts, January 18-19, 1991: Iraqi agents planted bombs at the U.S. Ambassador to Indonesia’s home residence and at the USIS library in Manila.

Attempted Assassination of President Bush by Iraqi Agents, April 14, 1993: The Iraqi intelligence service attempted to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush during a visit to Kuwait. In retaliation, the U.S. launched a cruise missile attack 2 months later on the Iraqi capital Baghdad.

PUK Kidnapping, September 13, 1996: In Iraq, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) militants kidnapped four French workers for Pharmaciens Sans Frontieres, a Canadian United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) official, and two Iraqis.

Philippines Hostage Incident, May 27, 2001: Muslim Abu Sayyaf guerrillas seized 13 tourists and 3 staff members at a resort on Palawan Island and took their captives to Basilan Island. The captives included three U.S. citizens: Guellermo Sobero and missionaries Martin and Gracia Burnham. Philippine troops fought a series of battles with the guerrillas between June 1 and June 3 during which 9 hostages escaped and two were found dead. The guerrillas took additional hostages when they seized the hospital in the town of Lamitan. On June 12, Abu Sayyaf spokesman Abu Sabaya claimed that Sobero had been killed and beheaded; his body was found in October. The Burnhams remained in captivity until June 2002.

Death of "the Lion of the Panjshir", September 9, 2001: Two suicide bombers fatally wounded Ahmed Shah Massoud, a leader of Afghanistan’s Northern Alliance, which had opposed both the Soviet occupation and the post-Soviet Taliban government. The bombers posed as journalists and were linked to al-Qaida. The Northern Alliance did not confirm Massoud’s death until September 15.

Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Homeland, September 11, 2001: Two hijacked airliners crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center. Soon thereafter, the Pentagon was struck by a third hijacked plane. A fourth hijacked plane, suspected to be bound for a high-profile target in Washington, crashed into a field in southern Pennsylvania. The attacks killed 3,025 U.S. citizens and other nationals. President Bush and Cabinet officials indicated that Usama Bin Laden was the prime suspect and that they considered the United States in a state of war with international terrorism. In the aftermath of the attacks, the United States formed the Global Coalition Against Terrorism.

Attack on a Church in Pakistan, October 28, 2001: Six masked gunmen shot up a church in Bahawalpur, Pakistan, killing 15 Pakistani Christians. No group claimed responsibility, although various militant Muslim groups were suspected.

And the list goes on...
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm

Of course I feel these extremists are threatening my way of life - they ARE.
this rant brought to you by the following sponsors....

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by FallenFairy

we are NOT comdeming the extremists for being MUSLIM - we ARE condeming their actions....

Well, sometimes it is difficult to tell the difference on this board when you see wonderful posts like this:

Originally Posted by fargon

I decided at that time these people were shit. From that minute on, I have tried to avoid contact with them. ... As far as I'm concerned, round'em up and ship'em home. Let them grow food in the desert.

So please excuse us if we have a difficult time seeing the difference, especially when there hasn't been any protests/violence/etc from American muslims or in any civilized western nation, for that matter. But, ah, I guess the solution is to just "ship 'em home!" Just to be safe. Just in case they happen to be violent. Or something. Yeah.

Originally Posted by FallenFairy

Of course I feel these extremists are threatening my way of life - they ARE.

Funny, that. You are aware that the biggest threat to your way of life, currently, comes more from your local federal government that any distant, flag-burning protester, right? You are aware that your fear is the only thing setting any constraints on your freedom and not some sign holder half a world away? Your own government has already agreed that your speech needs to be limited in order to be sensitive to the religions of others.

Extreme Muslims? The only people changing your way of life are wholesome, god-fearing Christians.

[Kitsune]

Oh, yeah! Finally! Some talk with some local muslims at USF on the matter!

Their view was: Yes, all the cartoons were insulting, mostly because they depicted something you're not supposed to depict. But both also agreed that several were funny and to the point, and didn't take it particularly personally.

Can you believe it? An Iraqi and an Iranian found some of them funny. One of the girls even pulled up the images on her laptop while in class. On looking at them, she didn't melt, scream, explode, or anything! Unbelievable!

The professor of the Middle East Pol Sci class pretty much stated that the protests and riots are "largely the exploitation of an ignorant population".

Considering that he is Tunisian, well...

[jaguar]

Christian? Me? Jesus christ woman get a goddamn grip. This is about freedom of speech, as close as possible to absolute freedom of speech as possible. My freedom to draw cartoons of mohammed of fucking a goat or jesus dressed a pot smoking hippie. It's a freedom a lot of people died for and one that is damn close to my heart.

The idea that halfwit such as yourself kowtowing to islamo-facists, blithely giving up one of pillars of western civilisation makes me sick. Ask anyone here, I tend towards the left and the dovish side of politics but this ridiculous farce over a couple of cartoons and the sickening response of fools such as yourself is just too much.

[Aliantha]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliantha
the 'coalition of the willing' has embarked on their own 'holy war' against a religion they find threatening to their own way of life.


Um... color me stupid but I swear it was a extremeist Muslim sect of terrorists that came to AMERICA and killed innocents- we are just cleaning up the mess...

OK, the problem with this whole situation is that no one seems to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff anymore. Yes of course we all know that the original 9/11 actions taken by Bin Laden and his cronies instigated A fight, but it's not the one currently being argued.

This could turn into a discussion on the rights and wrongs of the war in Iraq which has somehow become a cross between 'the war on terror' and 'bringing democracy to Iraq'. The problem is that the story has become so twisted and convoluted that it's hard to tell who's right and who's wrong. The problem is that no one seems to really know what anyone's truly fighting for anymore, and no one seems to know when it's going to end because people keep adding fuel to an already well lit fire.

The supporters of this conflict claim that they're democratizing Iraq and fighting terrorism. So be it! If that's the truth then good on them. The problem is that obviously not everyone in the world would like to see peace, including some members of Islam, some Christians and some stray dogs who don't believe in any God etc etc etc.

The problem is, protests like this happen because of a situation that many of these people are not to blame for. In fact, the majority of them are not to blame for any of it. They're just sick and tired of being persecuted because they believe in Allah and not God. They're sick and tired of being persecuted because some of their members are fruitloops. They're sick and tired of being persecuted because of the way they dress or how they look. They're sick and tired of being persecuted full stop.

Even the gentlest creature will react with violence if you taunt it enough.

[Aliantha]

Bruce, I found this information here:

Rate of change of Christians and Muslims:

Of the two largest religions, the "market share" of Christianity appears to be fairly constant:

*U.S. Center for World Mission estimated in 1997 that the percentage of humans who regard themselves as Christians rose from 33.7% in 1970 to 33.9% in 1996. 2 Its total number of adherents is growing at about 2.3% annually. This is approximately equal to the growth rate of the world's population. Islam is growing faster: about 2.9% and is thus increasing its market share.
* "World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions - AD 30 to 2200," estimates that as of 2000, Christians make up 33% of the world's population, with close to two billion followers.
*Author Samuel Huntington disagrees: "The percentage of Christians in the world peaked at about 30 % in the 1980s, leveled off, is now declining, and will probably approximate to about 25% of the world's population by 2025. As a result of their extremely high rates of population growth, the proportion of Muslims in the world will continue to increase dramatically, amounting to 20 percent of the world's population about the turn of the century, surpassing the number of Christians some years later, and probably accounting for about 30 percent of the world's population by 2025." 3
*The UK Christian Handbook has lower figures. They estimate that 28.3% of the world's population identified themselves as Christians in 1990. They expect this to drop to 27.7% by the year 2000, and to 27.1 in 2010. 4 They attribute the drop to the lower birth rate among Christians compared to followers of other religions.

Considering that these arguments seem fairly weighted and are from what would appear to be reliable sources, it would seem clear that my first claim that

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world

was correct. I will concede that Christianity is not outnumbered yet, but if these figures are true, we're only one generation from that becomming a fact.

The rest of the site is worth looking at. Some of the figures are surprising.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

The problem is, protests like this happen because of a situation that many of these people are not to blame for. In fact, the majority of them are not to blame for any of it. They're just sick and tired of being persecuted because they believe in Allah and not God. They're sick and tired of being persecuted because some of their members are fruitloops. They're sick and tired of being persecuted because of the way they dress or how they look. They're sick and tired of being persecuted full stop.

Even the gentlest creature will react with violence if you taunt it enough.

The only ones that are pesecuting these people are their religious leaders. They are being duped into believing the Jews and Christians of the World are plotting their demise......the west is keeping them from living the good life.
If I insult Allah and he can't handle it, or me, then he is a pissant Deity not worthy of the title.
If they were true believers they wouldn't be threatened by anyones opinion of Allah. They would be secure in their faith, and Allah, as I suspect most Muslims, including the ones in Kitsune's last post, are. The problem is those Muslims are very, very silent.
These rioters are nothing but scumbag hooligans that debase the Muslim faith, and deserve to me stomped