Bali baddie talks

Undertoad · 10-20-2002, 12:28 PM

http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/23709.htm

The guy who probably ordered the Bali bombing is in custody, and here's what he had to say:

Asked if he had anything to say to the families who lost relatives in the blast, the 64-year-old Bashir said: "My message to the families is please convert to Islam as soon as possible."

"The second message is for Australia because you suffered the most: Please advise your government not to follow the U.S. policy because it will bring tragedy for your country," he said.

Two separate paragraphs, two motives. One, all infidels are possible targets until there are no remaining infidels. Two, every nation in the anti-terror coalition is a target, and there's the promise of more to come.

But even though the religious and political motives are clear, the infidels did it:

"The indications are Americans and Jews did it to justify the claims that Indonesia is a terrorist haven. What they mean by terrorists is Muslims. So to prove their theory they created the incident in Bali."

There's that weird honor-shame culture in effect again. "We did it because we hate the infidels and the infidels hate us. But... we didn't do it. THEY did it."

It's a strange situation: when hearing these cultures say "we didn't do it", our instinct is to take them at their word, because our own cultures respect individual responsibility and expect admission of guilt. But "we didn't do it" is an instinctive reaction to ANY charge in these cultures. We see this again and again: in the EgyptAir pilot suicide, in the Yemeni demand that the French tanker was NOT hit by terrorists, in the entire mideast's heartfelt belief that bin Laden simply could not have done it and that bin Laden's own tape was an enormous ruse.

And it reminds me of racism in my own culture: the repeated blaming of the "other" that comes from hate groups. "The blacks moved in and ruined things." "The Jewish-run media controls what gets out." "The dirty immigrants stole all our jobs."

Radical Islam, various "National Front" movements, and the KKK: alike in so many ways.

Nic Name · 10-20-2002, 12:33 PM

Quote:

And it reminds me of racism in my own culture: the repeated blaming of the "other" that comes from hate groups. "The blacks moved in and ruined things." "The Jewish-run media controls what gets out." "The dirty immigrants stole all our jobs."

Quote:

It's a strange situation: when hearing these cultures say "we didn't do it", our instinct is to take them at their word, because our own cultures respect individual responsibility and expect admission of guilt.

and that reminds me of racism in my own culture ...

Undertoad · 10-20-2002, 12:37 PM

I will say this: without a speck of doubt in my mind, I believe that my culture is more advanced than the honor-shame culture.

If that makes me racist, then I'm a fucking racist.

MaggieL · 10-20-2002, 01:20 PM

"Infidels: your respect for freedom of religion requires you to respect our belief that you should be forced to conform to our religion or die."

Condensed version: "Mr. Policeman: I am God."

Nic Name · 10-20-2002, 01:25 PM

What indicates racism is viewing everyone of "them" (whatever group that may be) as a collective.

When you say, "hearing these cultures say, 'we didn't do it'" is like saying things like "blacks say this" or "jews say that" or "muslims say this or that" which are things that many racists say.

Cultures don't say anything. Individuals do. Ours is a culture of individual responsibility. Thinking otherwise, and holding another group responsible for the sayings of any individuals may be racism or bigotry, depending on the type of group.

Undertoad · 10-20-2002, 02:07 PM

You know, that's simply wrong. Racism, with the word "race" as a base word, is believing that certain races are superior or inferior simply as a matter of race.

(And I do believe that; for instance, I believe that African people make for a far superior selection of cornerbacks, due to a long history of having developed the type of musculature needed for sprinting... for whatever reason. And I believe the predominance of African-Americans as NFL cornerbacks is not racism, but a very strong nationwide process of selecting top-quality cornerbacks.)

But cultures are dramatically different. Human nature and personality may be similar, but the schools of thought that have developed through the interaction of individuals are much, much different.

We don't understand that in our society because we are taught that cultural differences are simply speaking different languages and eating different food. We assume that everyone uses the same moral codes, perspective, etc. But they don't.

Nic, I'm sorry, but this gets deeper the more I think about it. In honor-shame culture, collective thought is kinda welcomed!

And we can't see the products of our collective thinking because they are so deeply ingrained in us.

It would be racism if I were to say that if you took a one-year-old Arab and placed him in a guilt-culture western family, he would eventually fall into the same patterns as most fellow Arabs. I don't believe that (and the honor-shame culture isn't found solely in the Arab world anyway).

juju · 10-20-2002, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
I will say this: without a speck of doubt in my mind, I believe that my culture is more advanced than the honor-shame culture.

If that makes me racist, then I'm a fucking racist.

Culture is always changing, but does it really advance? What is a more advanced culture? Seems to me the criteria is more a matter of opinion than anything else.

elSicomoro · 10-20-2002, 05:13 PM

I dunno...this is starting to sound like a modern-day version of the Crusades.

I had an employee at Signal...his stepdad was one of the people in charge of Asian operations for Wyeth-Ayerst (a large pharmaceutical company). For whatever reason, he was based in Jakarta. The employee told me that his mom and stepdad had a suitcase packed and a one-way ticket to Singapore, in case they had to leave on a moment's notice. I wonder if they did so last week.

juju · 10-20-2002, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nic Name
What indicates racism is viewing everyone of "them" (whatever group that may be) as a collective.

I think the word you're looking for is 'generalizing'. Its use is more a matter of verbal convenience than anything else.

juju · 10-20-2002, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
(And I do believe that; for instance, I believe that African people make for a far superior selection of cornerbacks, due to a long history of having developed the type of musculature needed for sprinting... for whatever reason.

I don't believe that there's any scientific evidence to support this claim.

10-20-2002, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju

I don't believe that there's any scientific evidence to support this claim.

I dare you to prove it.

elSicomoro · 10-20-2002, 05:51 PM

I personally haven't looked at any detailed research involving this sorta thing; however, I do suspect that there is an evolutionary factor at work when it comes to African-Americans. So, without further ado...

Sycamore's Theory of African-American Evolution

For hundreds of years, Africans were brought to the Americas to do back-breaking work as slaves. The strongest and smartest ones lived; the weaker and less intelligent ones did not. Those smart genes were passed on to offspring. Due to the short lives that people lived in those times, the evolutionary cycle may have been accelerated (resulting in changes over a few hundred years, as opposed to thousands). Furthermore, with interbreeding between races, African-Americans were exposed to both African and European genes. This could have had both positive and negative consequences. Lastly, better nutrition and living conditions have benefitted people of all races. Though conditions may have improved only slightly after the abolishment of slavery, I personally suspect that any improvement over the general conditions of slavery would be of incredible benefit to at least some of the freed Africans and African-Americans. However, it is quite possible that many slaves were well cared for by their owners, and hence an end to slavery may have worsened the conditions of some.

It's a work in progress.

Griff · 10-20-2002, 06:45 PM

Warrens new name will be Jimmy (as in the Greek)

Undertoad · 10-20-2002, 06:51 PM

I doubt there would ever be studies that test for different muscle types in different races. There's no real reason to have such a study, and racial studies are not going to make the top of the list for finding by anyone, public or private.

But there *are* different types of muscle fibre that optimize one for sprinting (as opposed to having endurance), and obviously that's the sort of thing that's likely to have a genetic connection.

It's not a good or bad thing, either, until people start putting prejudice into the mix. A greater number of African-Americans are great cornerbacks, but that has no bearing on whether any one individual is a great cornerback, no matter what their race is.

elSicomoro · 10-20-2002, 07:10 PM

I think the main bone of contention in the difference between races involves intelligence. Now, I don't think African-Americans are less intelligent than Caucasians, nor do I think Asians are better at math or Indians/Pakistanis are better doctors. I see obvious physical differences between the three primary races, but intelligence...nah, I'm not buying that. There have been so many intelligent people of color in the course of human history.

10-20-2002, 12:28 PM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Bali baddie talks http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/23709.htm The guy who probably ordered the Bali bombing is in custody, and here's what he had to say: Asked if he had anything to say to the families who lost relatives in the blast, the 64-year-old Bashir said: "My message to the families is please convert to Islam as soon as possible." "The second message is for Australia because you suffered the most: Please advise your government not to follow the U.S. policy because it will bring tragedy for your country," he said. Two separate paragraphs, two motives. One, all infidels are possible targets until there are no remaining infidels. Two, every nation in the anti-terror coalition is a target, and there's the promise of more to come. But even though the religious and political motives are clear, the infidels did it: "The indications are Americans and Jews did it to justify the claims that Indonesia is a terrorist haven. What they mean by terrorists is Muslims. So to prove their theory they created the incident in Bali." There's that weird honor-shame culture in effect again. "We did it because we hate the infidels and the infidels hate us. But... we didn't do it. THEY did it." It's a strange situation: when hearing these cultures say "we didn't do it", our instinct is to take them at their word, because our own cultures respect individual responsibility and expect admission of guilt. But "we didn't do it" is an instinctive reaction to ANY charge in these cultures. We see this again and again: in the EgyptAir pilot suicide, in the Yemeni demand that the French tanker was NOT hit by terrorists, in the entire mideast's heartfelt belief that bin Laden simply could not have done it and that bin Laden's own tape was an enormous ruse. And it reminds me of racism in my own culture: the repeated blaming of the "other" that comes from hate groups. "The blacks moved in and ruined things." "The Jewish-run media controls what gets out." "The dirty immigrants stole all our jobs." Radical Islam, various "National Front" movements, and the KKK: alike in so many ways.

10-20-2002, 01:20 PM	#4
MaggieL in the Hour of Scampering Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Jeffersonville PA (15 mi NW of Philadelphia) Posts: 4,060	"Infidels: your respect for freedom of religion requires you to respect our belief that you should be forced to conform to our religion or die." Condensed version: "Mr. Policeman: I am God." __________________ "Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..."

10-20-2002, 01:25 PM	#5
Nic Name retired Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,930	What indicates racism is viewing everyone of "them" (whatever group that may be) as a collective. When you say, "hearing these cultures say, 'we didn't do it'" is like saying things like "blacks say this" or "jews say that" or "muslims say this or that" which are things that many racists say. Cultures don't say anything. Individuals do. Ours is a culture of individual responsibility. Thinking otherwise, and holding another group responsible for the sayings of any individuals may be racism or bigotry, depending on the type of group. Last edited by Nic Name; 10-20-2002 at 01:28 PM.

10-20-2002, 06:45 PM	#13
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Warrens new name will be Jimmy (as in the Greek) __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

10-20-2002, 12:37 PM	#3
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I will say this: without a speck of doubt in my mind, I believe that my culture is more advanced than the honor-shame culture. If that makes me racist, then I'm a fucking racist.

10-20-2002, 02:07 PM	#6
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	You know, that's simply wrong. Racism, with the word "race" as a base word, is believing that certain races are superior or inferior simply as a matter of race. (And I do believe that; for instance, I believe that African people make for a far superior selection of cornerbacks, due to a long history of having developed the type of musculature needed for sprinting... for whatever reason. And I believe the predominance of African-Americans as NFL cornerbacks is not racism, but a very strong nationwide process of selecting top-quality cornerbacks.) But cultures are dramatically different. Human nature and personality may be similar, but the schools of thought that have developed through the interaction of individuals are much, much different. We don't understand that in our society because we are taught that cultural differences are simply speaking different languages and eating different food. We assume that everyone uses the same moral codes, perspective, etc. But they don't. Nic, I'm sorry, but this gets deeper the more I think about it. In honor-shame culture, collective thought is kinda welcomed! And we can't see the products of our collective thinking because they are so deeply ingrained in us. It would be racism if I were to say that if you took a one-year-old Arab and placed him in a guilt-culture western family, he would eventually fall into the same patterns as most fellow Arabs. I don't believe that (and the honor-shame culture isn't found solely in the Arab world anyway).

10-20-2002, 05:13 PM	#8
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	I dunno...this is starting to sound like a modern-day version of the Crusades. I had an employee at Signal...his stepdad was one of the people in charge of Asian operations for Wyeth-Ayerst (a large pharmaceutical company). For whatever reason, he was based in Jakarta. The employee told me that his mom and stepdad had a suitcase packed and a one-way ticket to Singapore, in case they had to leave on a moment's notice. I wonder if they did so last week.

10-20-2002, 05:51 PM	#12
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	I personally haven't looked at any detailed research involving this sorta thing; however, I do suspect that there is an evolutionary factor at work when it comes to African-Americans. So, without further ado... Sycamore's Theory of African-American Evolution For hundreds of years, Africans were brought to the Americas to do back-breaking work as slaves. The strongest and smartest ones lived; the weaker and less intelligent ones did not. Those smart genes were passed on to offspring. Due to the short lives that people lived in those times, the evolutionary cycle may have been accelerated (resulting in changes over a few hundred years, as opposed to thousands). Furthermore, with interbreeding between races, African-Americans were exposed to both African and European genes. This could have had both positive and negative consequences. Lastly, better nutrition and living conditions have benefitted people of all races. Though conditions may have improved only slightly after the abolishment of slavery, I personally suspect that any improvement over the general conditions of slavery would be of incredible benefit to at least some of the freed Africans and African-Americans. However, it is quite possible that many slaves were well cared for by their owners, and hence an end to slavery may have worsened the conditions of some. It's a work in progress.

10-20-2002, 06:51 PM	#14
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I doubt there would ever be studies that test for different muscle types in different races. There's no real reason to have such a study, and racial studies are not going to make the top of the list for finding by anyone, public or private. But there are different types of muscle fibre that optimize one for sprinting (as opposed to having endurance), and obviously that's the sort of thing that's likely to have a genetic connection. It's not a good or bad thing, either, until people start putting prejudice into the mix. A greater number of African-Americans are great cornerbacks, but that has no bearing on whether any one individual is a great cornerback, no matter what their race is.

10-20-2002, 07:10 PM	#15
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	I think the main bone of contention in the difference between races involves intelligence. Now, I don't think African-Americans are less intelligent than Caucasians, nor do I think Asians are better at math or Indians/Pakistanis are better doctors. I see obvious physical differences between the three primary races, but intelligence...nah, I'm not buying that. There have been so many intelligent people of color in the course of human history.

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