A New Palestinian Uprising

07-08-2002, 12:11 PM

I had a realization the other day; sort of like an epiphany. Many times I have been asked, "Well what can the Palestinians do?" And the answer came to me.

Suicide bombers are going to kill themselves anyway. That's a given. So let's remember that - there are people willing to die for their cause, which is supposedly Palestinian Freedom (TM).

Killing Israeli individuals (soldiers, civilians, whatever) is not going to make a difference. They cannot possibly kill them all, nor can they kill enough to drive out the Israelis. This is also a known fact. Do not consider the negativity of suicide bombing in the sense that it kills humans - just look at the tactical aspect of it. That is, there is none. It simply won't be effective.

Now, think of the negativity of it - it hardens Israeli resolve and it gives Israel an excuse to crack down on Palestinians. The Palestinians are dumping gas on Sharon's fire, if you will.

What they need to do is effectively demonstrate.

I take you to the Vietnamese Buddhist demonstrations of the 60's.

For those that are unaware, here's what happened to Thich Quang Duc, the most famous of the protestors.

He stepped out of his car, sat down in the street. He assumed the Lotus position and began meditating. One of his fellow monks doused him with gasoline and then stood back. Duc lit a match and was instantly covered in flames. He sat there and burned. If you have RATM's first album, you've seen the picture. Most other people have as well. It won the Pulitzer prize that year.

All of a sudden, the entire world was awakened to the plight of the Buddhists in Vietnam.

It's my contention that a similar tactic would work wonders for the Palestinians.

You take these people that are willing to die - suicide bombers - and train them to self immolate. Maybe they do it in groups of two. Maybe they take some cyanide beforehand so they don't have to suffer the pain of burning.

They walk into a crowded Jerusalem open market, sit down, become doused in gasoline - either by an accomplice or themselves - and then make a scene.

Why would this work?

Well, first of all, it eliminates the negative associations of their typical "resistance". Now they're not killing innocent people, only themselves.

It's just as effective, tactically, as suicide bombing, because neither one is getting rid of enough Israelis.

World opinion would be strongly in their favor. Everyone would be asking "What can be so bad that they would light themselves on fire?"

And everyone would know about it because it would be a huge spectacle.

At the rate of one or two a week, it's my belief that these protests would be frequent enough to keep conversation on the topic and would be effective enough to actually bring about some change. Who doesn't have sympathy for a people that are being treated so awful that they self immolate?

What do you think? Would this work?

Now... my theory as to why it will never happen.

Because the Palestinians that are really willing to die for the freedom are indoctrinated with hatred against Jews at an early age. They don't want freedom; they want to kill Jews. Self immolation doesn't hurt anyone else, so there's no point in it.

Respond to the first part before you respond to the last. I don't want Count Zero, tw, Xugumad and friends saying that it's not true that Palestinian extremists are bloodthirsty. They are. Get over it. Let's find a meaningful form of protest that might actually work.

elSicomoro · 07-08-2002, 12:20 PM

That's almost as good as the US going over and colonizing the land, except it wouldn't incite hate against us.

Seriously, the only argument I can make against this is that the Palestinians might be unwilling to suffer any physical pain. I'm just assuming here, but I don't think you feel much pain if you blow yourself up.

Although, if it truly IS in the name of Allah, then they should be lining up.

07-08-2002, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by the mother fuckin' pimp extraordinaire
Maybe they take some cyanide beforehand so they don't have to suffer the pain of burning.

juju · 07-08-2002, 02:03 PM

Burning to death is long, slow, and extremly painful. Even if you're doped up, there's plenty of time for someone to "save" you and take you to the hospital. Then you have 3rd degree burns all over your body, and you're in hell for the rest of your life.

07-08-2002, 02:06 PM

Cyanide, juju. Cyanide. Or something else that causes death pretty instantaneously.

tw · 07-08-2002, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dhamsaic
Thich Quang Duc ... stepped out of his car, sat down in the street. He assumed the Lotus position and began meditating. One of his fellow monks doused him with gasoline and then stood back. Duc lit a match and was instantly covered in flames. He sat there and burned. ...
All of a sudden, the entire world was awakened to the plight of the Buddhists in Vietnam.

It's my contention that a similar tactic would work wonders for the Palestinians.

The concept is fundamentally valid - could be quite effective. However it has two problems. The first is that international press does not have the freedom in Israel that it had in VietNam. Second, is that we have been there; seen that.

The concept would indeed be mesmorizing IF it was a new twist on an old, proven concept. BTW, the Buddist did not flinch or scream as he burned to death - making it that much more stunning as we watched it on TV network news. And that is the trick - to perform a new twist on a previously executed tactic - and have a press friendly enough to truly distribute the facts - including why the man's/women's life had been so destroyed as to commit suicide.

The Buddist monk was campaigning against a government that was an enemy of the people. However at the same time, a US president was putting full US support behind that government. Ironically, George Jr is the first US president to ever support the policies of Likud in direct opposition to Arab interests. He is the first US president to endorse the policies of any Likud government. Not even Reagan would permit a Likud government to use US supplied weapons against occupied territory residents or in Lebanon. More similarities between the two events if a Palestinian did the public burning gig.

However what happens after that? Does the UN respond with a peace force? That force is necessary and called for by many including the EU. Other G-8 members are either neutral or in favor of it. A majority on the Security Council have no objections. But America, that now loves Likud, would veto a peace force outright.

A public burning would be influential, but by itself, would not have signficicant consequences. It took reality - the Pentagon Papers - to expose lies about VietNam - to change public opinion. A simple human sacrifice, same as suicide bombings, really only remind us that there is a conflict over there - nothing more.

elSicomoro · 07-08-2002, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dhamsaic
Cyanide, juju. Cyanide. Or something else that causes death pretty instantaneously.

Couldn't get to this earlier...my bad for not noticing what you wrote in your original post.

Anyway, I was just doing some research on cyanide...it basically suffocates you. Now that's just weak ass shit...they'll fall asleep before they can set themselves on fire.

Rho uses a topical lidocaine solution to put on her skin before she has to get blood drawn. Now that COULD be an idea. And it comes in a spray form...you just hose yourself down with lidocaine...I would think by the time it becomes painful, you're near death anyway.

elSicomoro · 07-08-2002, 11:38 PM

Dave and I were conversing on IM about this thread when I came up with another idea...crucifixion.

As I understand Islam, Jesus is considered one of the holier folk (although not the head nigga in charge as he is in Christianity). So, why not pay homage to Jesus while partaking in a somewhat painful procedure that will not only give you a somewhat easy death (suffocation), but also draw sympathy from Christians around the world ?

spinningfetus · 07-09-2002, 10:32 AM

ummm. if pictures of children being killed by soldiers, families torn apart by soldiers, homes being bulldozed by soldiers, haven't had an effect on the American consciousness, why would any of these creative suicides have any. My understanding of the bombers is that they are taking lives for ruining theirs. Plus you have to look at the cultural differences: Buddism says that this is just one stage on a path. For Islam though suicide is itself a sin, but if you are killing enemies of Allah in the act it is no longer suicide and therefore that person can still get into heaven. More of a spiritual loophole there than anything else as far as I can tell.

07-09-2002, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spinningfetus
ummm. if pictures of children being killed by soldiers, families torn apart by soldiers, homes being bulldozed by soldiers, haven't had an effect on the American consciousness, why would any of these creative suicides have any.

Perhaps because the suicides were no longer taking the lives of 3 year olds?

As I've stated before, the suicide bombers legitimize the Israeli military campaign in the eyes of many. People say "yeah, it's real shitty that someone's house got bulldozed, but it's even shittier that a baby got blown up on a bus."

Undertoad · 07-09-2002, 04:43 PM

It would very certainly have an effect, especially on Israelis. Israelis would never have elected Sharon in the first place, except that the reaction of Palestinians to softer (or in tw's terms, "non-extremist") prime ministers was increased terrorism.

The reaction of Israelis to such protests would be to demand that a state be created for Palestinians.

Such a demonstration would show that the Palestinians had truly given up the "killing the infidels" half of their fight, but remain just as desperate and hopeless as before.

It won't happen. Amongst other things, it would require the Pals to have a very different type of religious extremism. We know you get to heaven if you're snuffing in the name of jihad... how can it be jihad if you don't kill unbelievers?

jaguar · 07-09-2002, 06:32 PM

Quote:

especially on Israelis. Israelis would never have elected Sharon in the first place, except that the reaction of Palestinians to softer (or in tw's terms, "non-extremist") prime ministers was increased terrorism.

*Bring!* Incorrect. You're out, thankyou for playing.

07-09-2002, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
*Bring!* Incorrect. You're out, thankyou for playing.

Wow dude. I bet you got an A in debate class. Your refutation of Tony's post was simply staggering.

jaguar · 07-09-2002, 09:36 PM

Burden of evidence lies with the prosecutor eh?
http://216.239.35.100/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/eve...8000/78730.stm
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/r...letter0409.htm
take a look @ http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/100/maps/oslo.html
look at that map. Is that a valible place to live?

Undertoad · 07-09-2002, 10:30 PM

Now you owe me five minutes back for looking through your silly links. Do you deny that the timeline goes:

- Arafat rejects Barak offering at Camp David
- Arafat returns and declares intifada
- Sharon elected

07-08-2002, 12:11 PM	#1
dave Guest Posts: n/a	A New Palestinian Uprising I had a realization the other day; sort of like an epiphany. Many times I have been asked, "Well what can the Palestinians <b>do</b>?" And the answer came to me. Suicide bombers are going to kill themselves anyway. That's a given. So let's remember that - there are people willing to die for their cause, which is supposedly Palestinian Freedom (TM). Killing Israeli individuals (soldiers, civilians, whatever) is not going to make a difference. They cannot possibly kill them all, nor can they kill enough to drive out the Israelis. This is also a known fact. Do not consider the negativity of suicide bombing in the sense that it kills humans - just look at the tactical aspect of it. That is, there is none. It simply won't be effective. Now, think of the negativity of it - it hardens Israeli resolve <b>and</b> it gives Israel an excuse to crack down on Palestinians. The Palestinians are dumping gas on Sharon's fire, if you will. What they need to do is effectively demonstrate. I take you to the Vietnamese Buddhist demonstrations of the 60's. For those that are unaware, here's what happened to Thich Quang Duc, the most famous of the protestors. He stepped out of his car, sat down in the street. He assumed the Lotus position and began meditating. One of his fellow monks doused him with gasoline and then stood back. Duc lit a match and was instantly covered in flames. He sat there and burned. If you have RATM's first album, you've seen the picture. Most other people have as well. It won the Pulitzer prize that year. All of a sudden, the entire world was awakened to the plight of the Buddhists in Vietnam. It's my contention that a similar tactic would work wonders for the Palestinians. You take these people that are willing to die - suicide bombers - and train them to self immolate. Maybe they do it in groups of two. Maybe they take some cyanide beforehand so they don't have to suffer the pain of burning. They walk into a crowded Jerusalem open market, sit down, become doused in gasoline - either by an accomplice or themselves - and then make a scene. Why would this work? Well, first of all, it eliminates the negative associations of their typical "resistance". Now they're not killing innocent people, only themselves. It's just as effective, tactically, as suicide bombing, because neither one is getting rid of enough Israelis. World opinion would be <b>strongly</b> in their favor. Everyone would be asking "What can be so bad that they would light themselves on fire?" And everyone would know about it because it would be a huge spectacle. At the rate of one or two a week, it's my belief that these protests would be frequent enough to keep conversation on the topic and would be effective enough to actually bring about some change. Who doesn't have sympathy for a people that are being treated <b>so</b> awful that they self immolate? What do you think? Would this work? Now... my theory as to why it will <b>never</b> happen. Because the Palestinians that are really willing to die for the freedom are indoctrinated with hatred against Jews at an early age. They don't want freedom; they want to kill Jews. Self immolation doesn't hurt anyone else, so there's no point in it. Respond to the first part before you respond to the last. I don't want Count Zero, tw, Xugumad and friends saying that it's not true that Palestinian extremists are bloodthirsty. They are. Get over it. Let's find a meaningful form of protest that might actually work.

07-09-2002, 10:32 AM	#9
spinningfetus Major Inhabitant Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Between a rock and a hard place... Posts: 122	ummm. if pictures of children being killed by soldiers, families torn apart by soldiers, homes being bulldozed by soldiers, haven't had an effect on the American consciousness, why would any of these creative suicides have any. My understanding of the bombers is that they are taking lives for ruining theirs. Plus you have to look at the cultural differences: Buddism says that this is just one stage on a path. For Islam though suicide is itself a sin, but if you are killing enemies of Allah in the act it is no longer suicide and therefore that person can still get into heaven. More of a spiritual loophole there than anything else as far as I can tell. __________________ Don't turn you back on the bottle, its never turned its back on you. -Boozy the Clown

07-09-2002, 09:36 PM	#14
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Burden of evidence lies with the prosecutor eh? http://216.239.35.100/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8 http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/eve...8000/78730.stm http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/r...letter0409.htm take a look @ http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/100/maps/oslo.html look at that map. Is that a valible place to live? __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-08-2002, 12:20 PM	#2
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	That's almost as good as the US going over and colonizing the land, except it wouldn't incite hate against us. Seriously, the only argument I can make against this is that the Palestinians might be unwilling to suffer any physical pain. I'm just assuming here, but I don't think you feel much pain if you blow yourself up. Although, if it truly IS in the name of Allah, then they should be lining up.

07-08-2002, 02:03 PM	#4
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Burning to death is long, slow, and extremly painful. Even if you're doped up, there's plenty of time for someone to "save" you and take you to the hospital. Then you have 3rd degree burns all over your body, and you're in hell for the rest of your life.

07-08-2002, 02:06 PM	#5
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Cyanide, juju. Cyanide. Or something else that causes death pretty instantaneously.

07-08-2002, 11:38 PM	#8
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	Dave and I were conversing on IM about this thread when I came up with another idea...crucifixion. As I understand Islam, Jesus is considered one of the holier folk (although not the head nigga in charge as he is in Christianity). So, why not pay homage to Jesus while partaking in a somewhat painful procedure that will not only give you a somewhat easy death (suffocation), but also draw sympathy from Christians around the world ?

07-09-2002, 04:43 PM	#11
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	It would very certainly have an effect, especially on Israelis. Israelis would never have elected Sharon in the first place, except that the reaction of Palestinians to softer (or in tw's terms, "non-extremist") prime ministers was increased terrorism. The reaction of Israelis to such protests would be to demand that a state be created for Palestinians. Such a demonstration would show that the Palestinians had truly given up the "killing the infidels" half of their fight, but remain just as desperate and hopeless as before. It won't happen. Amongst other things, it would require the Pals to have a very different type of religious extremism. We know you get to heaven if you're snuffing in the name of jihad... how can it be jihad if you don't kill unbelievers?

07-09-2002, 10:30 PM	#15
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Now you owe me five minutes back for looking through your silly links. Do you deny that the timeline goes: - Arafat rejects Barak offering at Camp David - Arafat returns and declares intifada - Sharon elected

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