The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Politics

Politics Where we learn not to think less of others who don't share our views

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-08-2020, 09:04 AM   #46
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
I guess the hundreds of thousands of homes, thousands of department stores and the Interstate Highway System building don't count.
Interstate Highway system was built after 1952 and mostly ended by the 1980s. Yes we do build some things since the housing stock must grow with population. However many are not addressing a shortage of affordable housing (some claim a percentage increase in homeless) because house construction is maintained in a McMansion sector of the economy. Affordable housing has not kept up.

In a boom created by money games (early 2000), there was a masssive construction in commercial properties. That misguided effort means vacancy rates on commerical property (especially malls) has increased significantly. In what is suppose to be a growing economy, commercial vacancy rates are increasing.

Most all work is directed at economic maintenance (ie roads, groceries) and replacement. Of all that work, 2% might do actual growth - if economic numbers are actually measuring tangible accomplishments. A healthy economy does better than 2%. 2% is paltry.

In Clinton's time, growth increased to eventually exceed 4%. George Jr's period saw less growth. And most of that was invented in finance games. Eventually resulting in negative growth.

Obama's positive grow rates finally got the economy back around 2011 to where is was in 2001. Unfortunately even with a healthy 4% growth, where are those interstate highway projects, new bridges and tunnels, high speed rail, new airports, or even increasing exports? It pays for wars that accomplish nothing but promote wacko extremists (ie Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc).

This past year, American exports have even decreased by 10%. Who is doing an increasing amount of GDP in America? Foreign manufacturers. We are building less. Many American industries are surrendering to or are being purchased by foreign manufacturers - who do what America once dominated: innovation. Even the world's best (innovative) light bulbs are predominately designed and manufactured overseas.

Developed just in one place were lasers, fiber optics, computer voice and digital music, satellite communication, digital information theory, computer software innovations, PCM, cell phones, transistors, radio astronomy, statistical process control, photoelectric cells, the big bang, cryptography (based in information theory), MOSFET transistor (currently the world standard), OFDM (now an international standard in and makes possible today's mobile phones and TVs), charge coupled devices (that makes all current cameras possible), the ESS phone system, fiber optic ocean cables, and TDMA / CDMA communications. All but the last occurred before 1970.

Bell Labs were only one of so many venues where innovation at these levels were routine. All those things are now standard technologies throughout the world. Where are so many innovations since then? Without the greater California region, America would be a second class nation. We no longer see so many innovations - the only thing that creates growth. Even the Bell Labs are no longer owned by Americans. Finland now owns it.

We once did all that, built homes, built an interstate highway system, built bridges and tunnels, and built all commercial properties we needed back then. What remains from that list? Homes. We even have too many commercial properties and no longer built highways, railroads, or bridges to even meet current demands.

What are future world leaders working on? Quantum computing, quantum physics and mechanics, solar and wind based energy innovations, terahertz based devices, genetically manufactured crops and drugs, artificial intelligence, robotics (replacing humans with machines), and energy consuming devices that consume massively less energy. America, that was once a leader in every one is only a leader in a few. Even superior automotive, wind and solar energy, GM technology, and quantum physics has left America. America has not been able to put a man in space for almost 20 years (now that George Jr administration destroyed that American technology by pushing a bogus Constellation, Ares, and Orion). Superior ships are built in S Korea, Japan, Norway, and other nations. American designers of skyscrapers do most work overseas. Even Intel, for the first time ever, is now run by a bean counter (the CFO) who knows nothing about microprocessors. Another precursor to something bad coming.

So what are people working on? America has more military than the next largest six nations combined. And what do wacko extremists want? More military. IOW more wars and more waste. Talent and abilities exist. But are wasted (misdirected) on unproductive activities - ie Mission Accomplished war, bogus man space projects, and protecting obsolete technologies such as GM cars, stifled innovation in the drug industry, and corporate downsizing to enrich dying companies (ie General Electric, Sears, white appliance industry, and now I fear Boeing).

That explains so much infrastructure that was not even maintained - so as to claim growth on spread sheets.

In Philadelphia, maintenance on Veteran's Stadium was ignored. 30 years later, it was so bad that it had to be ripped down and replaced. So that is growth only because money was saved and costs controlled on the existing structure? That is growth only when spread sheets play fast and loose using money games - ie no maintenance.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2020, 09:30 AM   #47
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
Quote:
In what is suppose to be a growing economy, commercial vacancy rates are increasing.
You can't have growth without things dying off (and sometimes being reborn as other things). The malls died because they were replaced, not because people stopped buying things. The new class A office space made the old office space class B.

And the Vet. Reminder, I was a contractor for the Eagles in 98-99 and was in basically every facility of Vet Stadium inside and out. (except the visitors locker room - I never made it there)

It was not a good football stadium. It was maintained - they replaced its entire playing surface, at great expense, a few years before they destroyed it. But it lacked things that couldn't just be easily added. They wanted a football-only configuration, with rows of deep luxury boxes that make big money in a cold weather town.

And lots more restrooms...
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2020, 06:12 PM   #48
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
It was not a good football stadium. It was maintained - they replaced its entire playing surface, at great expense, a few years before they destroyed it.
That was not maintenance. That field was so not maintained for so many years that, did you sit on it? Asphalt was softer. That field was rock hard like concrete. I was appalled that any sport organization would let their expensive players play on that field - for decades. But again, they failed to do any maintenance. Eventually spent massively to replace it.

Had that field been maintained, then no capital money was spent. Maintenance does not appear on spread sheets as 'growth'. Have done no maintenance (and hurt how many players), then they were forced to completely replace it. And that, using money games, appears on spread sheets as 'growth'.

If that stadium was bad for football, then why are so many older and "inferior" stadiums (LAs Memorial Coliseum, Chicago's Soldiers Field, or Lambeau Field) constantly not replaced? Vet Stadium was only inferior to corporations whose SuperBoxes were not big (luxurious) enough.

Veteran's Stadium suffered from near zero maintenance. Even a crappy field finally had to be replaced because of no maintenance for decades. Had that field been maintained, then it would have never been as hard as concrete. I will never forget how hard (uncomfortable is was). That started me noticing its poor maintenance.

As if blowing trash out after every game is maintenance. It was replaced because it even leaked rain throughout interior spaces. They did not even fix the roofs.

On spread sheets, doing no maintenance and then replacing what should have been a perfectly good structure is 'growth'? It isn't. It is simply spending money fixing what bean counters created. They simply replaced one perfectly good stadium with another. And even used myths that somehow proved that replacement created new profits.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2020, 07:01 PM   #49
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
The shitty old turf was replaced six times during Vet stadium's lifetime. Finally in 2001, at great expense, they dug it up deeply and installed an entirely new type of turf with an entirely new and IIRC much better drainage system. Then in 2004 they demolished the stadium... for other reasons.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 01:04 PM   #50
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
... for other reasons.
Such as leaking roofs due to no maintenance.

If a turf was replaced without cost controls, then it would not be concrete hard. Just because they replaced turf using cost controls does not mean maintenance really occurred.

Vet Stadium was a classic example of how bean counters claim profits (ie growth) by doing things that are actually destructive. Roofs were even leaking.

Name a single innovative product from GE in the past 30 years. They make profits by selling off everything. They sold NBC. They sold a division that makes all those great silicone chalks and other chemicals. They sold their white appliance division. GE air conditioners were sold to Haier - a Chinese company. Division that makes advanced plastic such as Lexan was sold to Sabic - a Saudi company. GE Locomotives were first outsourced to foreign companies and recently sold to Wabtec. GE satellite and aerospace divisions sold to Lockeed Martin and McDonald Douglas. Universal Studios - movies and theme parks - sold to Comcast.

GE semiconductor manufacturing (transistors and thyristors) - gone. GE nuclear - gone. The innovation called varistors - sold. GE computers. Sold off. GE Pharmaceuticals to Danaher. GE electric motors - gone. GE's energy management division (GE's 2015 innovation) recently sold. GE Power (wind mills and other new energy generation) is not profitable - in a hottest new industry now dominated by Chinese, Denmark, Spain, Germany (including Siemens - the GE of Germany), and India. GE TVs - long gone - I believe sold to China. The electrical division (wall receptacles, breaker boxes, etc) will be sold to ABB (a Swiss-Swede company). The 2011 acquisition of gasoline engines and oil drilling equipment - gone.

GE did what business school graduates do. Make profits. GE made profits by running up a massive debt. Even had a division to just manipulate the books so that GE, at one point, paid no Federal taxes. One quarter of all GE profits came only from GE's financial services division. Since profits came from money games - not from innovation (the only thing that made America great).

Now that massive debt claimed profits for decades, GE must now keep selling off all businesses to claim more profits. To pay off that debt.

A money game just like one played on Philadelphia sport stadiums.

Maintenance is an expense (not growth) on spread sheets. So do no maintenance. Then later spend that money replacing the decrepit item. That appears as growth on spread sheets - when they simply replaced something that was destroyed by no maintenance.

Actual growth only exists when one creates new things. Replacing things that were never maintained is not growth - except on the spread sheets. Innovation (not money games) creates growth. Name one innovative product from GE in the past 30 years. No innovation (except in the aircraft engine division) for so long now means massive debts. Spread sheets are now reporting what did not happen 10 and 30 years ago.

What happened? GE was run into the ground by business school graduates - people who did not come from where the work gets done.

A benchmark of someone who has successfully enriched himself at the expense of everyone else. Created no growth. Trump never ran one successful business. A business school graduate (Wharton School) doing exactly what is taught in those schools. Make profits. Ignore the product - the only honest reason for a business. Profits (money games) and growth need not coincide.

Last edited by tw; 02-12-2020 at 01:14 PM.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 01:09 PM   #51
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
The stadium was replaced because the team wanted a new stadium that got them more revenue by doubling the number and size of luxury boxes, and the city of Philadelphia and Commonwealth of Pennsylvania were willing to foot $188M of the cost to build it

P E R I O D

If the city and state did not pony up that money, the Vet lives on.

Have you been? Both Lincoln Financial Field and Citizens Bank Park are excellent venues.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 01:19 PM   #52
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
T... the city of Philadelphia and Commonwealth of Pennsylvania were willing to foot $188M of the cost to build it
$188 Million to simply replace what already existed. Because the billionaire owners wanted government to pay for new stadiums - so they could increase their profits.

What is the difference between that and what Trump also did all his life? Where did growth happen?

Enrich the rich by getting government to subsidize your stadium. That is growth? Of course not.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 01:58 PM   #53
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
After four days you've agreed it wasn't maintenance progress
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 04:10 PM   #54
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
After four days you've agreed it wasn't maintenance progress
Shitty turf was repeatedly replaced - and was still defective. That is not maintenance. That is a classic example of cost controls. Money was spent. So it must be better? Resulting in a still shitty turf.

They could not even fix the roofs.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 04:33 PM   #55
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
Point is, and you need not argue it because you've kind of conceded it, the Vet was not demolished due to lack of maintenance. It was demolished due to $188M.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2020, 01:13 AM   #56
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
They sold a division that makes all those great silicone chalks and other chemicals.
I know this was a simple mistake of chalk instead of caulk, and I'm sure most people would know what you meant.
I'm certainly in no position to criticize as I do that silly shit all the time.

But I actually laughed out loud picturing my JR High Latin teacher, Prune Lips Grinell, trying to write on the blackboard with a chalk of slippery silicone.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2020, 08:03 AM   #57
Luce
Weaponized Funk
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Arizona
Posts: 446
Meanwhile, Trump is now saying federal workers can't have a raise this year because the economy sucks.

Except he also said it's the best economy ever.

Schroedinger's Economy?
__________________
Finagle's Law takes no prisoners.
Luce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2020, 08:08 AM   #58
Luce
Weaponized Funk
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Arizona
Posts: 446
Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
Perspective. If viewing from the late 1940 to 1950s, then growth existed. However that growth was only restoring what was lost in 1938 to 1945. Restoration continued until 1970.
How much was lost inside the USA?
__________________
Finagle's Law takes no prisoners.
Luce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2020, 12:10 PM   #59
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luce View Post
How much was lost inside the USA?
Much less than in Europe and Japan. But still lots of work in America produced nothing that advanced society. That is the problem with war. Nothing useful is created. Plenty of destruction (massive negative growth) exists especially on the front lines (ie Europe and Japan).

GE has had no significant growth for most of the past 30 years. So the spread sheets are finally reporting it. US had a tremendous loss of growth during and due to Vietnam. Again, spread sheets only reported that many years later. The point is that economics can be easily subverted. Many assume economic activity is automatically growth. Provided are examples of economic activity resulting in no growth or even negative growth.

Trump got rich by simply doing nothing productive. By simply dumping losses (quite successfully) on others. Those four Atlantic City casinos are a perfect example. Growth means something tangible results. Those casinos are examples of no growth.

Productive work done today really only appears as profits four or ten years later. Fundamental research today (that creates growth) is reported by profits maybe 20 years later.

RCA created a blue light LED in the 1960s But could not make it work sufficiently to become marketable. Hiroshi Amano created the first successful blue light LED (that makes white LEDs possible) in 1989. When did an LED bulb become a new standard? After 2010? It takes that long for fundamental research (what makes growth) to result in profits. Another example of how spread sheets really only report what happened many years or decades later.

Economic activity (ie larger cash flows) is not always growth. Plenty of work done in America during WWII and Vietnam. Which resulted in no (or negative) growth.

1950s saw lots of work because negative growth during the war had to be created by positive growth. Ie a massive housing boom.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2020, 12:11 PM   #60
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
But I actually laughed out loud picturing my JR High Latin teacher, Prune Lips Grinell, trying to write on the blackboard with a chalk of slippery silicone.
If he was using the good stuff, he never had to write it again.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:14 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.