Has our intelligence dropped to zero already? - Page 7

BigV · 04-26-2005, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

BigV - it is ridiculous,

Yes. It is. Don't qualify it to death. It's inexcusable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

but - BUT - we don't know anything other than what we see on this video. who don't know how this student behaves normally, we don't know of previous problems, we don't know about previous interaction with the parents, etc. i'm not saying that the school was right or wrong - i am saying we don't know all the facts.

too late.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

i know one thing for sure - i will watch a 5 year old be handcuffed before i allow myself to run the risk of being dragged to court by some parent who doesn't like the fact that i held their kid in a way that they don't appreciate. --snip--

Ok, l123. Let me ask you this. I'm trying to listen to what you're saying and I think it's this:

As a teacher,i know one thing for sure - i will watch a 5 year old be handcuffed before i allow myself to run the risk of being dragged to court by some parent who doesn't like the fact that i held their kid in a way that they don't appreciate.

Italics mine. You have a reasonable fear of being sued by the parent. Ok.

Could you with equal ease say this:

As a parent, i know one thing for sure - i will watch a 5 year old be handcuffed before i allow myself to run the risk of being dragged to court by some parent who doesn't like the fact that i held their kid in a way that they don't appreciate.

Italics mine. I wonder...

And if you can would you further say this:

As a parent, I would rather see my 5 year old handcuffed than risk having him be held by his teacher, because I might not appreciate it.

(Hey, paraphrased you instead of mangling the syntax.)

If it's YOUR KID, what's your call? Cuff'em or hug'em?

And if it's not your kid? Same rules or not? If not, why not?

The rules I spoke of do not permit inappropriate touching. In fact I reported "appropriate restraint is permitted". Shit, just because the cop CAN handcuff the kid doesn't mean he can feel up the kid. Just because the rules say a teacher can restrain a kid doesn't mean the teacher can feel up the kid. Seriously.

Are you saying you'd rather trade the guaranteed trauma of being handcuffed to avoid the potential trauma of inappropriate touching? Hey, if circumstances are so out of control that a kindergartener is in handcuffs, the inevitability of throwin down in court was established some time ago. Just gonna be different charges.

lookout123 · 04-26-2005, 05:44 PM

BigV - as a parent - if my child is throwing an uncontrollable fit in school like this, they would rather deal with the cops than me. but the problem is that achild who behaves like this probably doesn't have a proper framework of discipline at home.

but as a parent, if my child does acts out that terribly that a teacher, a principal, and a cop see fit to handcuff - then so be it. i am not the suing type if they chose to restrain him themselves (within reason), but i know that there are many out there just looking for an excuse to sue so i wouldn't blame them. i know that, as a parent, if my child was one of the other children sitting in their seats, annoyed, disturbed, and probably afraid of the little freakshow kid, i would be seriously pissed if they HADN"T used whatever means necessary to get that little brat out of the room.

keep in mind that we aren't talking about a teacher walking up to a student who is quietly drawing and thinking "hmmm, i wonder what they would look like in handcuffs?"
the child went berserk. the teacher responded - ineffectively - but to the extent of their abilities at the time.

as a teacher? i would hope that i would have been able to diffuse the situation before i got that far, but i would not pick up that child and hug them and try to soothe them when they are in that condition unless i knew exactly how the parents would view that - because one little brat is not worth my time, money, or energy in court.

BigV · 04-26-2005, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I honestly hadn't thought of this approach, and it looks good on the surface. But what happens when a parent objects? How long to hold a child, and at what distance? How could the video have shown what was being whispered in the ear? Where's the line between good touching and bad touching if you are restraining a child? Don't give me the logical answer, give me the lawyer's answer.

Look, I can't speak for other parents. Duh. As a parent of MY kids, for myself, I'll say this.

The video won't reveal what's being whispered in the kid's ear. So I'll ask. I'll ask the teacher and my kid. I'll combine that infomation with everything else I learn about the situation and see if anything stands out.

The line between good touching and bad touching is approximately what your good sense tells you it is. A ballpark estimate? Areas covered by a regular bathing suit are the out of bounds areas. And another big clue, have another adult present. Makes everyone a little more comfortable. Shit, have more kids present if it's appropriate. For example, if a kid's freaking out because he's being teased because he had an accident in his pants, then maybe it's adults only, no additional kids. I'm saying, be open. I mean if the video's rolling, then what will you try to get away with that you can't defend in court.

Ok, you just asked for the laywer's answer... don't know. not a lawyer. What I know of lawyers is that they have a duty to their clients. And the client is parents and kids in this case. Soooo... back to me.

If I find out that it was bad touching, and it was a crime of opportunity, occasioned by my kid's tantrum--he's goin down. ALL inappropriate touching is verboten. But damn. If it's not inappropriate touching, then it's not. The end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

This is a litigious society, and that teacher was hobbled by it. She can't lose her job over one tantrum. Calling the cops for a 5 year old is silly, but in the heat of the moment, terrified of angry parents and school boards, the teacher did what she thought was best.

Litigious society. Fuckin fight the power! Don't sue someone today.

Gonna lose my job. Hell, you were looking for a job when you found this one, weren't you? Maybe this isn't your field.

Terrified of parents and school boards? Time to renew that application down at Starbucks, baby.

Be a force for good. Imagine that you're not the only one, and treat others accordingly. Admit your mistakes, and learn from them. Acknowledge that others do exactly the same thing. Do your best. Communicate what you're trying to accomplish to the kids, the parents, the other staff. Review your own goals and motivations for this kind of work. Be aware that this shit happens and how will you improve next time. Don't give up.

warch · 04-26-2005, 06:00 PM

From the point of view of a young teacher who has faced down an emotionally disturbed, out of control 6 year old in an inclusive classroom...and felt totally powerless, and unable to cope, even after the restraint training workshops...I see nothing wrong with this response. The kid needed to restrained for her own safety and the rest of the school's kids. She need to be calmed and removed. I applaud the school for calling for help. No one wants the kid hurt. Or any of the other kids. There are some mentally ill kids out there that are not simply "undisciplined". I dont know, but I'm guessing she's been scarred by far worse than police restraints.

I will simply add that all those that assume what a easy gig managing a class of 20-28 average kindergarteners would be, never have.

OnyxCougar · 04-26-2005, 06:07 PM

BigV, you are missing a big BIG chunk of the story here, one that MUST be considered before further dialog and discussion can take place:

(1) Is the child special needs.

If the child is special needs, then what kind of special needs is crucial. To Autistics and Asperger's children, (and a variety of syndroms like them) you touch them, you might as well have lit them on fire. It is BAD BAD BAD.

(2) What is the previous history with this child?

I agree with most of your post. I think RESPONSIBLE parents don't have a problem with this, because they are, well, responsible. Like yourself. As a parent, you would obviously rather come to the school and pick your child up or calm your child down rather than see your child handcuffed.

But if you are the kind of parent that won't come pick the child up, or teach the child basic discipline and good behavior, then what else do expect the school to do? We do know that the school called the child's parents and they never came. After 45 minutes, it's police calling time.

BigV, you're looking at this from a respectable, responsible, INVOLVED parent perspective. From that perspective, you're absolutely right on all points.

But you're missing the reality of the situation. The reality is that regardless of Jaieesha's "needs", (special or otherwise), her mother DID NOT SHOW UP when she was advised the school could no longer contain the child. That tells me VOLUMES. What kind of parent won't go get thier kid?? The same kind that isn't teaching good behavior, respect, responsiblity, etc etc.

This is the SAME KIND OF PARENT who will sue the school quick as you can BLINK for restraining her child "improperly".

The same kind of person that sue McDonald's for hot coffee.

It happens. It's not right. It's not fair. But it happens. Teachers CANNOT ignore the legalistic viewpoint because ALL TOO OFTEN it means their job.

I'm sorry you don't like that. I don't like it either. But that doesn't change how things are.

OnyxCougar · 04-26-2005, 06:14 PM

This case is actually on CNN after the commercial, so tune in to that...

BigV · 04-26-2005, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warch

From the point of view of a young teacher who has faced down an emotionally disturbed, out of control 6 year old in an inclusive classroom...and felt totally powerless, and unable to cope, even after the restraint training workshops...I see nothing wrong with this response. The kid needed to restrained for her own safety and the rest of the school's kids. She need to be calmed and removed. I applaud the school for calling for help. No one wants the kid hurt. Or any of the other kids. There are some mentally ill kids out there that are not simply "undisciplined". I dont know, but I'm guessing she's been scarred by far worse than police restraints.

Needed to be calmed down, agreed. Needed to be removed, also agreed. Needed to be restrained, sure. The teacher's needed help, obviously. And the cops come when you call, ok.

But I have a higher standard for the police. I expect them to be able to use the MINIMUM force required to protect and to serve. From what I saw, their actions exceeded this standard, and I expect they'll answer for it.

UT joked early on that at least they didn't tazer her. Or tear gas her. Or shoot her. Why not? Obviously because that level of response was not warranted. I submit that even the handcuffing was not warranted. I repeat my admission of the shallowness of my knowledge of police procedures. I can only support this opinion on the strenght of my standing as a citizen and a parent. This kid did not deserve to be cuffed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by warch

I will simply add that all those that assume what a easy gig managing a class of 20-28 average kindergarteners would be, never have.

I haven't done this myself. Close though. And the closer I get, more kids, younger kids, rowdier settings, power tools, open water, projectiles, the more respect I have for those courageous souls that enter the arena day after day.

OnyxCougar · 04-26-2005, 06:22 PM

Big,

I put this in a previous post.

The child is uncontrollable. Do not put the child in the back of the squad car unrestrained. She could hurt herself back there.

If you're going to put her in the car, restrain her first. ALWAYS.

BigV · 04-26-2005, 06:23 PM

wolf, OnyxCougar, thank you for you kind thoughts and words of encouragement.

Troubleshooter, you are urged to feel as chastened as is necessary. I will leave it up to your good judgement to determine the depth and breadth and duration.

wolf · 04-27-2005, 12:57 AM

OC's right about needing to restrain folks in a squad car. Even very cooperative, agreeable folks. I take a lot of handcuffs off voluntary patients.

What I'm trying to figure out is where they got a set of cuffs to fit the kid.

Troubleshooter · 04-27-2005, 08:13 AM

Unfortunately, my good judgement, based on personal experience at home with my own child and working an adolescent ward at a psychiatric facility, dictates that I feel no chastening. Sorry.

My friend has taken to carrying two sets of cuffs now, a small and a large. Before long he's going to end up with a case of them in his unit.

OnyxCougar · 04-27-2005, 09:28 AM

OK Big, I just don't see where I'm alone in a special category of wrongness here.

BigV · 04-27-2005, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

OC's right about needing to restrain folks in a squad car. Even very cooperative, agreeable folks. I take a lot of handcuffs off voluntary patients.

What I'm trying to figure out is where they got a set of cuffs to fit the kid.

Plastic zip tie style cuffs. You're right regular steel cuffs didn't work.

Guess why? They're not designed to be used on children that small.

Troubleshooter · 04-27-2005, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigV

Guess why? They're not designed to be used on children that small.

That's because children that age weren't as likely to behave like that in the past. Straw Man.

Happy Monkey · 04-27-2005, 10:42 AM

I've got a book of sayings by Balthazar Gracian, who lived in the early 1600s. One of the quotes is, in effect, "Kids these days are out of control."

04-26-2005, 05:44 PM	#92
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	BigV - as a parent - if my child is throwing an uncontrollable fit in school like this, they would rather deal with the cops than me. but the problem is that achild who behaves like this probably doesn't have a proper framework of discipline at home. but as a parent, if my child does acts out that terribly that a teacher, a principal, and a cop see fit to handcuff - then so be it. i am not the suing type if they chose to restrain him themselves (within reason), but i know that there are many out there just looking for an excuse to sue so i wouldn't blame them. i know that, as a parent, if my child was one of the other children sitting in their seats, annoyed, disturbed, and probably afraid of the little freakshow kid, i would be seriously pissed if they HADN"T used whatever means necessary to get that little brat out of the room. keep in mind that we aren't talking about a teacher walking up to a student who is quietly drawing and thinking "hmmm, i wonder what they would look like in handcuffs?" the child went berserk. the teacher responded - ineffectively - but to the extent of their abilities at the time. as a teacher? i would hope that i would have been able to diffuse the situation before i got that far, but i would not pick up that child and hug them and try to soothe them when they are in that condition unless i knew exactly how the parents would view that - because one little brat is not worth my time, money, or energy in court. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

04-26-2005, 06:07 PM	#95
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	BigV, you are missing a big BIG chunk of the story here, one that MUST be considered before further dialog and discussion can take place: (1) Is the child special needs. If the child is special needs, then what kind of special needs is crucial. To Autistics and Asperger's children, (and a variety of syndroms like them) you touch them, you might as well have lit them on fire. It is BAD BAD BAD. (2) What is the previous history with this child? I agree with most of your post. I think RESPONSIBLE parents don't have a problem with this, because they are, well, responsible. Like yourself. As a parent, you would obviously rather come to the school and pick your child up or calm your child down rather than see your child handcuffed. But if you are the kind of parent that won't come pick the child up, or teach the child basic discipline and good behavior, then what else do expect the school to do? We do know that the school called the child's parents and they never came. After 45 minutes, it's police calling time. BigV, you're looking at this from a respectable, responsible, INVOLVED parent perspective. From that perspective, you're absolutely right on all points. But you're missing the reality of the situation. The reality is that regardless of Jaieesha's "needs", (special or otherwise), her mother DID NOT SHOW UP when she was advised the school could no longer contain the child. That tells me VOLUMES. What kind of parent won't go get thier kid?? The same kind that isn't teaching good behavior, respect, responsiblity, etc etc. This is the SAME KIND OF PARENT who will sue the school quick as you can BLINK for restraining her child "improperly". The same kind of person that sue McDonald's for hot coffee. It happens. It's not right. It's not fair. But it happens. Teachers CANNOT ignore the legalistic viewpoint because ALL TOO OFTEN it means their job. I'm sorry you don't like that. I don't like it either. But that doesn't change how things are. __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

04-26-2005, 06:14 PM	#96
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	This case is actually on CNN after the commercial, so tune in to that... __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

04-26-2005, 06:22 PM	#98
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	Big, I put this in a previous post. The child is uncontrollable. Do not put the child in the back of the squad car unrestrained. She could hurt herself back there. If you're going to put her in the car, restrain her first. ALWAYS. __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

04-26-2005, 06:23 PM	#99
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	Off topic wolf, OnyxCougar, thank you for you kind thoughts and words of encouragement. Troubleshooter, you are urged to feel as chastened as is necessary. I will leave it up to your good judgement to determine the depth and breadth and duration. __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

04-26-2005, 06:00 PM	#94
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	From the point of view of a young teacher who has faced down an emotionally disturbed, out of control 6 year old in an inclusive classroom...and felt totally powerless, and unable to cope, even after the restraint training workshops...I see nothing wrong with this response. The kid needed to restrained for her own safety and the rest of the school's kids. She need to be calmed and removed. I applaud the school for calling for help. No one wants the kid hurt. Or any of the other kids. There are some mentally ill kids out there that are not simply "undisciplined". I dont know, but I'm guessing she's been scarred by far worse than police restraints. I will simply add that all those that assume what a easy gig managing a class of 20-28 average kindergarteners would be, never have.

04-27-2005, 12:57 AM	#100
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	OC's right about needing to restrain folks in a squad car. Even very cooperative, agreeable folks. I take a lot of handcuffs off voluntary patients. What I'm trying to figure out is where they got a set of cuffs to fit the kid. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

04-27-2005, 08:13 AM	#101
Troubleshooter The urban Jane Goodall Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 3,012	Unfortunately, my good judgement, based on personal experience at home with my own child and working an adolescent ward at a psychiatric facility, dictates that I feel no chastening. Sorry. My friend has taken to carrying two sets of cuffs now, a small and a large. Before long he's going to end up with a case of them in his unit. __________________ I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle

04-27-2005, 09:28 AM	#102
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	OK Big, I just don't see where I'm alone in a special category of wrongness here. __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

04-27-2005, 10:42 AM	#105
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	I've got a book of sayings by Balthazar Gracian, who lived in the early 1600s. One of the quotes is, in effect, "Kids these days are out of control." __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

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