Deja Vu all over again - Iran and the Bomb

[richlevy]

Secretary of State Powell is issuing dire warnings about Iran . There are some very familiar elements.

Intelligence is coming from an exile group.
Noone can corroborate the intelligence.
The international agency responsible for verification has no evidence of anything wrong, but can not prove that there isn't something going on.

I can't say what is true or not here. However, I can say that the US has pretty much blown it's credibility on issues like this. Also, this time we know we would need foreign assistance to resolve the issue because an invasion of Iran would make Iraq look like a junior prom.

[wolf]

Colin's not the only one who noticed.

They've been sneaking around.

For a while now.

In lighter Iranian news today ... The floggings will continue until the morale and proper religious devotion improves.

[Elspode]

You know, Korea is going to need their ass kicked pretty soon, too. So that's going to put us in Iraq, Iran and North Korea all at the same time? I don't really think it is possible for us to maintain a three-front war on terrorism without ending up drafting people like me. Since none of you really want that (I'm a poor shot, and I soil myself when I have my head cut off), I think we need to figure out a way to get Iran and North Korea to take each other out...

Hey, Iran! The North Koreans are laughing about your turbans!

[wolf]

And ate before sundown during ramadan. You gotta tailor the insult to the culture.

Hey, North Korea, I hear the Iranians said that your kimchee tastes like Kim Jong Il's jockstrap!!

[jaguar]

Frankly, if I was Iran I'd be getting as many nukes and other WMDs as I could, innocence is no defence against the US military industrial complex so you may as well get ready to inflict some serious damage on the way down, worked for the DPRK, the US only picks on countries that can't fight back.

Jag has got a point - might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. I think I'd do the same thing, myself, since the US has already proven that it doesn't give a damn what sorts of weapons you have or don't have or how many international laws it breaks. If I were a country of any size, I'd arm myself to the teeth and engage in every possible chance to get WMD's in any way I could. That way when the invasion came, as it surely will, at least I'd be one hell of a bitter pill to swallow. Thank you, George Jr.

[DanaC]

Given recent history if I was Iran I would assume that America's policy is to disarm me before attacking me.

As battle tactics go it's an interesting one. First remove the enemy's military arsenal under the auspices of world peace then ride in on a tank and decimate what's left of it's defences before installing a compliant puppet regime in it's place. Highly effective thus far in terms of causing the maximum possible trouble and strife for the enemy, unfortunately it does somewhat send a message out to every other despotic regime in America's sights.....to whit, never under any circumstances allow the Uninted States of America disarm you under the auspices of world peace.

I also love all this mincing around and throwing up of arms over the terrible, irresponsible, downright evil build up of nuclear weapons going on in Iran and Korea. Coming from America, home of the biggest nuclear arsenal on the planet ....America who has pulled out of non proliferation treaties in order to continue testing various types of unpleasant weaponry .....well frankly it's a bit rich.

Are we really going to do this all again folks? Have we learned nothing? What right have we to force democracy on another sovereign nation? If the Iranian people want democracy they'll overthrow their government, such has been the task of many a people at many points in the world's history. The only possible rationale for imposing democracy onto another nation is in pursuit of "security" for America and it's allies.....and let's face it that's about as flawed a rationale for this war (these wars) as you are likely to find.

The only time democracy comes at the point of a gun is when it rises from the bottom up. Democracy is not imposed from the top down. Throughout history those at the top have sought to limit and post caveats around the democratic freedoms of those they rule; conversely those living under the rule of others have historically pushed the boundaries of their democratic freedoms to the consternation of the powers that be.

[wolf]

I seem to recall that Iran's Current despotic government took over from their last somewhat less despotic, but heritary government.

Did the people of Iran benefit from this revolution?

[jaguar]

Well they didn't have the hand of the US up the ruler's arse, that must've made a nice change. That was however, a while ago now.

[Undertoad]

Non-answer

[wolf]

Hmm. Let's see.

Traditional monarchy in a country that was actually fairly progressive for it's region in terms of things like individual freedom and woman's rights versus a religious dictatorship that was looked upon as a role model for the Taliban?

[Griff]

What's this the invent a history for Iran thread?

[tw]

Originally Posted by jaguar

Frankly, if I was Iran I'd be getting as many nukes and other WMDs as I could, innocence is no defence against the US military industrial complex so you may as well get ready to inflict some serious damage on the way down,

One need not read newspapers to know both Iran and North Korea need as many nukes as they can build. It helps when America all but encourages its allies (Pakistan) to arm such countries.

We have told the world that we will be attacking Iran and North Korea. Americans voted to say war and belligerence is good. Screw the allies, the American economy, and our grandkids. This week, Rush Limbaugh types have started propaganda necessary to justify the Iranian attack. Just as in Iraq, 70% of us will be so mentally deficient (neo-con) as to believe that propaganda. What reasoning will be used iin place of aluminum tubes? Difficult to remind the 70% that we started all this some years ago when we decided to 'rescue them from themselves'. Principles from the Project for New American Century said we must do just that. The 70% will forget all that - it was too long ago.

George Jr administration intends to 'reform' Central Asia. To install democracy down their throats. To teach them how to be good Americans with funny accents and Christian moral values. To impose our religious beliefs on those infidels. Deja Vu.

The irony? America also is has become a religious extremist nation. This is how Crusades were promoted. This is how a 30 Years War killed more people than the Black Plague. This is what happens when people use their penis and their god to justify their actions. Attack on Iran will start after 2005. The 'good' religious people of America want such Armageddon.

Does Iran have nuclear weapons? If they did not, then Iranians are just plain stupid. No body is that stupid. We're coming in the name of Christian moral righteousness. God is on our side. They better damn well have nuclear weapons or something equivalent. Only a fool would condemn them for not arming to the max. Patriots can only sit back now and watch American values be subverted by satanic moralists. In Star Wars, it was called 'turning to the Dark Side'. In America, its called Christian morals. Fancy new words that describe something so extreme and so anti-American that such morality can be called evil. Propaganda to justify a Peral Harbor attack on Iran has now started.

[wolf]

My bad, I should have typed "hereditary monarchy" and then some reading informed me that it was only heriditary in the sense of "there was another coup and the Russians put the son of the last guy in."

But I do stand by my statements about the shahs having been more of a progressive bent.

[DanaC]

The Shahs or the Mullahs it doesnt really matter so long as it's Iranians ruling Iranians. Anything else is as Imperial at heart as India or the Philipines ever were.

As to the nature of the system which the revolution overthrew, I would wager those wonderful liberal values extended primarily to the middle classes ... If Iran had been a model of fairplay and evenhanded justice for all I have doubts that so many of the populace would have risen and given their support to the revolution.

*Chuckles* I just read that last paragraph back to myself and then it occurred to me...Wolf, do you value any classes beyond the middle class? I hear much about the middle class in America....is there a place in your world view for the working class?

Just teasing. ....Anyway....The fact that the revolution once achieved led to a disappointingly repressive form of governance does not then give outsiders the right to stomp in and make 'em do it properly. Instead what that leads to, or should lead to in a forward looking world with an internationally valued peace, is a counter revolution........often this counter revolution doesnt happen with the same fire and fervour of it's parent. Often it happens across a generation or two and it takes down the regime in a death by a thousand cuts.

This drip drip of progress and generational disenchantment with the ideals of dead martyrs is already happening in Iran. ......Or rather it was. That particular train may of course be derailed pretty fucking sharpish if you prove the Mullahs right in their fear and loathing of America ..... I wonder how many Iranian women these days take full coverage as a mark of pride in their Islamic identity and defiance against those who have launched a "war on Islam".

I am reminded of a cartoon I saw once. The details are hazy in my recollection but it involved a talking monkey, a stick, a wasp nest and some advice not followed. Got pretty messy as I recall.