11/4/2002: Gay Games open

[Cam]

If you truly don't know what "out" means, let's try some examples: Ellen de Generis is definately out. J. Edgar Hoover was not.

Famous people make shitty examples with regards to personal life. There entire life is under a microscope everday so when they decide to come out every single person knows about it. And they incure the wrath of people who are homophobic yet don't know them personally. Kind of a different story if your next door neighbor decided to come out today.

So basically, the point is, you don't need to announce it to be yourself. Just like straight people don't introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Donald and I'm straight", gay persons don't need to introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Phil and I'm gay."

Exactly

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by perth
i dont go around telling people im straight.

Of course not. You don't have to, because everyone simply assumes that you *are* straight...after all, isn't everybody?

And that's kind of the point. If you hold hands with your girlfriend on the street, nobody accuses you of "flaunting" anything; it's an act with no political significance. But if I hold hands with *my* girlfriend in public, all of a sudden I'm "getting in peoples face's with my sexuality". How rude of me. A well-balanced, *nice* queer would simply crawl back into the closet and not upset people. It's uppity queers like that that give queerness a bad name. Right, Philgump? :-)

There is no way to have an ordinary, everyday expression of queer sexuality without it being controversial...whereas straight sexuality is publically expressed *constantly*...so much so that most of it passes pretty much unnoticed. This is the value of a space like the Gay Games, or a Pride Parade, or places like Key West or the Castro or Provincetown. There, routine expression between two people (hand-holding, hugging, etc.) of same-sex affection isn't politiczed, it matters only to the people involved.

Of course, I could also hold hands with a boyfriend (don't have one at the moment but that could change) and get flack from some gay people for being bisexual. "Fencesitter! Don't camoflage! Accept your true queer nature like the rest of us have!"

"How queer is that?" :-)

The normative collective cultural pressure is "don't ask, don't tell"...that way you don't ever challenge people's cherished assumptions, or stir up any repressed emotion or cognitive dissonance. It make it possible to continue the fallacy that "almost everybody is straight, so it's OK to assume that everybody is".

Originally posted by MaggieL
But if I hold hands with *my* girlfriend in public, all of a sudden I'm "getting in peoples face's with my sexuality". How rude of me. A well-balanced, *nice* queer would simply crawl back into the closet and not upset people. It's uppity queers like that that give queerness a bad name. Right, Philgump? :-)

I don't think that's it at all (though I haven't ever walked down the street holding hands with another male, so I can't speak from personal experience). I think all he's saying is that it's fine to be gay, but by differentiating yourself (i.e., by having "gay games"), you further instill in people the notion that gays are different from "normal" human beings.

I didn't read anything from him saying that same sex couples shouldn't walk down the street holding hands - and of course there's always going to be some stares or whatnot. Give it time though, and try not to be so self conscious about it. I think less people actually care than you might think.

[elSicomoro]

Juju, I wouldn't tell anyone you're from Arkansas either.

It's amazing how different cultures can be. If two guys held hands in the US, they would almost automatically be labeled as "gay." In the Arab world, from what I understand, that is considered a sign of good friendship.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by dave

I think all he's saying is that it's fine to be gay, but by differentiating yourself (i.e., by having "gay games"), you further instill in people the notion that gays are different from "normal" human beings.

Well, queer folk *are* different from "normal" human beings. They're queer.

But making gayness invisible does nothing to advance the idea that "queer folks are like other people only queer". That's why there are gay amateur radio clubs, and gay railroad model clubs, and gay shooting clubs. (Obligatory plug: http://www.pinkpistols.org Don't miss Gwen on "PhillyLive" tonight at 7:30pm on WYBE)

Originally posted by dave
I didn't read anything from him saying that same sex couples shouldn't walk down the street holding hands - and of course there's always going to be some stares or whatnot.

Of course. Queer folks should *always* be prepared to accept rude behavior from "normal" people, what else can you expect? :-)

But sometimes it's nice to have a place where you *don't* have to put up with that bullshit, and that's what the Gay Games and other queer space are for.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Cam
Famous people make shitty examples with regards to personal life.

I suppose. But there's not much point in me offering examples from people who *aren't* famous...nobody knows who they are.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Cam
And they incure the wrath of people who are homophobic yet don't know them personally. Kind of a different story if your next door neighbor decided to come out today.

Yes, that would be like the difference between a Matthew Shepard story vs. a Brandon Teena story.

Speaking of Brandon, November 20th is The fourth annual Transgender Day of Remeberance

[Cam]

Or maybe it's that you don't know who they are. That's the thing with people who are out. their friends probably know they are out but you can't tell who they are when you walk down the street. Which is a indicator that they are the same as you and me. I think the biggest thing is that people have very little experience with actual acquaintences who are gay. If they had that experience instead of famous people who suddenly come out, most people would have a different view of gays.

I personaly have had no experience with someone who is gay so I'm making this up as I go. But if I found out my friends were gay it would be quite a shock. Though I like to think I would be able to handle it and look at them the same.

[philgump]

See that is what I mean....segragation!!!

Well, I declare this the first Annual day of people with medium brown hair that like bananas and like to eat them frozen dipped in chocolate while sipping diet cola day. Why not make a day for Jews for Hitler!

BTW Dave, I have to say I would not hold another mans hand while out and about in town. You see there is are certain things you don't do. I mean is if you enjoyed throwing up and eating it would you still do it in public NO! Why because it is not yet socially acceptable. Do you still have the right to eat your own barf? Sure, but that would not be appropriate at this age in history. perhaps as people grow more fond of puke eating it will become ok, like spitting *this one I still think is gross* anywhere that you happen to be.

My Point and I do have one (he he inside joke) is that we live in an age where it is OK to be gay but not OK for them to make out in public. That is just the age we live in DEAL WITH IT!

To all that may ask and I have seen sveral NO I AM NOT ASHAMED TO BE GAY!!!!! I just don't think it is the best word that describes me. Perhaps some people are so shallow and two-dimensional that they have to rely on catorgorizing themselves as *GAY* becasue that is the most interesting thing about them. I on the other hand would much rather be known as the guy that makes people laugh, or that crazy guy than to be known as that gay guy! Hmmm perhaps it is just me but being known as "The Gay Guy" just seems to be a bit degrading. Just like if I catorgorized maggie as that "Dyke Chick".

[yourlegsdontwork]

Sweet jesus. I've been following this post for a while and I just haven't said anything until this moment.

Not to be the obnoxious one with the dictionary or anything but:

queer (kwîr)
adj. queer·er, queer·est
Deviating from the expected or normal; strange: a queer situation.
Odd or unconventional, as in behavior; eccentric. See Synonyms at strange.
Of a questionable nature or character; suspicious.
Slang. Fake; counterfeit.
Feeling slightly ill; queasy.
Offensive Slang. Homosexual.
Usage Problem. Of or relating to lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, or transgendered people.

What is the deal with MaggieL using the word queer? Anyone else finding that odd? Reminds me of the other day I was at a thrift store and asked the owner what charity her store supported, and she said she started the store herself "Because
my daughter is a retard, and I wanted to help other retards."
I'm sorry but that is not right. Saying "My daughter is mentally retarded" or "mentally challenged" would have been nicer than busting out with "shes a retard and i wanna help other retards."
Maybe the fact that she then said "We are going to take all the donation money to take the retards to Disney World because retards seem to like that" made it a bit worse....but back to the issue..

In my opinion "those damn queers" are people too. We had to vote on seperate gay rights in South Florida earlier this year and I don't think that gay people should have their own set of rights. Everyone is a person, and everyone should be treated the same. One minute people are screaming about segregation, and the next they are seperating themselves again.

If we are going to give gay people their own set of games, then what I would like to know is where is the Olympics for fat people that can't run as fast?

I would have to agree with Phil, I understand what he is trying to say about not wanting gay people to be seperated from others that are "normal." I happen to have a lot of friends that are "gay" and they are "normal" to me. I have seen people go out of their way to bash gay people because they are holding hands, so I can completely understand Phil's reasoning behind not flaunting it in public.

I could have lived without the barf theory, Phil...and BTW, nice plug for Ellen's book

*~Tara~*

[perth]

Originally posted by yourlegsdontwork
... what I would like to know is where is the Olympics for fat people that can't run as fast?

i think this is what youre looking for.

~james

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by yourlegsdontwork
What is the deal with MaggieL using the word queer? Anyone else finding that odd?

Nah. I can't speak for her, but she may wish to use it as a word of empowerment or for the sheer "power" the word holds (similar to "spic" or "nigger").

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by sycamore
Nah. I can't speak for her, but she may wish to use it as a word of empowerment or for the sheer "power" the word holds (similar to "spic" or "nigger").

Absolutely. Also because it's a bit more inclusive used in this way; it embraces bisexual and transgendered people as well, which "gay" might or might not, depending on who you ask. For examples, many transsexual people don't consider themselves gay if they are exclusively attracted to the opposit sex (referenced to their desired sex). Brandon Teena had a girlfriend, for example.

Originally posted by yourlegsdontwork
We had to vote on seperate gay rights in South Florida earlier this year and I don't think that gay people should have their own set of rights.

I largely agree with that. Certainly I don't endorse hate crime laws; if I'm attacked, first let me defend myself, and then bring a criminal complaint for assault or whatever else is appropriate.

I have seen people go out of their way to bash gay people because they are holding hands, so I can completely understand Phil's reasoning behind not flaunting it in public.

Let's be clear though, Legs: when you say "bashing gay people" are you talking about an actual assault, just taunting, or something else?

"<i>That is just the age we live in DEAL WITH IT!</i>" is certainly not a good reason for not hand holding. It might be good advice forpeople who don't like it. . The work "flaunting" is completely misapplied; would you call it "flaunting" when a straight couple holds hands?

As for comparing same sex hand-holding to throwing up, well, if as a man who is gay, you're so ego-dystonic that you find that analogy apt, Phil, I honestly think you should seek some counseling. Just my opinion.

As for being called "that dyke chick", the problem I'd have with that is that it's misleading. Folks might presume I'm exclusively Lesbian, and I'm not.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by philgump
See that is what I mean....segragation!!!

Well, I declare this the first Annual day of people with medium brown hair that like bananas and like to eat them frozen dipped in chocolate while sipping diet cola day. Why not make a day for Jews for Hitler!

Well, there are days to remeber the Jews Hitler killed. There are also days to remeber the homosexuals he slaughtered. Why there shouldn't there be a day to remeber murdered transsexuals?

Is Memorial Day segregation because it's only to remeber US veterans killed in combat?

[kodijack]

I agree with lawman wholeheartedly. Do whatever the f*** you want, but if you want to be taken seriously do it with the rest of the world and then prove your point. Still, I would take points on the number of falls in that long program.