Bush's latest claim

[alphageek31337]

I only have to ask you, who in the history of the world, has ever used a nuclear weapon in wartime?

[slang]

Originally Posted by marichiko

And which country has the greatest arsenal of WMD of all, and which has a penchant for undeclared wars against other nations?

Yes, I know exactly where you stand. I know a lot of people with this opinion. There are also many who have the exact opposite opinion. We know that they are nothing more than dumbasses though. Their vision is blurred by the bible, Bush's propaganda machine, and Fox news.

In the big picture we're all Americans and I have actually found some things that you have posted here to be interesting and sometimes even funny. We are polar opposites though but any opinions I have are of no value becuase I am a dumbass. They hold no validity. My experience and knowledge of the world is simply fantasy and trumped tenfold by yours. Fine.

Let's start talking about the post election strategy. There are too many numbers on each side to accept defeat, so no matter who wins, half of us lose. That means that tens of millions of people will feel that the political system has failed them. This is not good, no matter who wins.

We can go round and round with articles, referencs and opinions. Nothing changes, not your opinion, not mine. So what is the goal?

For me, it's developing a productive strategy for living with millions of people that 1.) are convinced that they hold the one truth on every issue, and 2.) resisting the culture changes that I so completely disagree with.

No Bruce that doesnt mean that I think Bush will lose :p

I have what I consider to be a unique position of seeing a large variety of very strong polar opposite opinions. My position has not changed but I recognize that we are in a very dangerous postition as a country.

You think that Muhammad and Malvo crashed the local econmy in the DC area over a short period of weeks? That incident is but a drop of water in a bucket, multiply those two by 2000 across the entire country, shooting people for God or Kerry or whatever. Game over.

There are so many people that see no chance for their hopes and dreams to become reality with the opposition's guy winning, that many will participate in some from of rebellion. Much of it will be in simple non-violent protest, much will be in wars in selective spending, and some to disrupt or destroy the system. There are such large numbers that even those that do not directly participate in questionable protest, there will certainly be people that harbor those that do.

There is a culture war in the air. Red versus Blue. Winning isnt winning, losing isnt losing. We are in for more interesting times ahead.

And no, this is not my plan. I'm just a dumbass, remember? Ask someone in the bible belt or NYC though.......

Slang, I never called you a "dumb ass." You are mis-guided, perhaps. I think you are correct in your perception that our country is becoming ever more polarized, and people are coming to feel more and more disenfranchised. In my door to door canvassing many people have said to me either that they're not going to vote because they hate both candidates equally or they're not going to vote because they feel the whole thing has been rigged, so what's the point? On other sites - radical one's, I'll admit - people are openly advocating taking to the streets the day after the election. They say the Chinese have a curse which goes, "May you live in interesting times." Indeed.

[Undertoad]

Taking to the streets over what - federal funding of stem-cell research?

I'll be happy to participate in a protest, but there must be free parking.

[slang]

Originally Posted by marichiko

..... people are openly advocating taking to the streets the day after the election.

And so it seems that there are groups on both sides are are equally willing to fire the first shot.

If I had a dime for every time I heard the phrase "end times" in the last month, I wouldnt need a job.

You personally have not called me or any other righty a dumbass. That's true. The fact is though that there are so few Reps here because they are run out. They dont have days on end to prepare the replies to a continuous string of accusations, half truths and outright lies. They are gone. I think lookout does a good job at presenting our perspective in a friendly manner and have told him that. But we are outnumbered here. UT does a good job at being fair and has the capacity to make a case well too. Half the time I cant read his posts and the other half I cheer.

The fact is though, that the Cellar is not a cross section of America. Just as in other communities, feel good about the dominance of your philosophy, but realize this isnt reality. It's not balaned.

So anyway, what is the solution to the separation? I dont know. Two countries maybe. That's not going to happen so I dont know.

It is however my opinion that we are all Americans and I can see everyone's contributions and perspectives. That doesnt mean that I or we are going to change our beliefs though. Not any more than the other side.

Where does that leave us? Only time will tell.

[slang]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Taking to the streets over what - federal funding of stem-cell research?

I'll be happy to participate in a protest, but there must be free parking.

UT.....you guys arent the norm. You are a high end guy in a city. You dont believe in God, dont have guns galore, dont work for the government and are not a veteran.

You truly dont even see the wide variety of people that are gearing up.....on both sides.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Taking to the streets over what - federal funding of stem-cell research?

I'll be happy to participate in a protest, but there must be free parking.

Here's the site, since you asked. It's hardly a main stream one, and most of it is too far to the left, even for me! But the thought is being put out there.

http://info.interactivist.net/articl...=thread&tid=14

[Cyber Wolf]

Those folks can take to the streets and do their protest and all...as long as they don't get in my way. They won't make me sympathetic to any cause by making my day more difficult.

*still seething over recent IMF/World Bank street closings*

[hot_pastrami]

With the snafus of the last election still fresh in America's memory, as well as the potential fraud to be done on electronic voting machines, this election is going to be under the microscope like none before it.

If the results are close at all, the after-election will probably be besmirched with recounts, accusations of election fraud, rioting, and other general unpleasantness. The population is not only polarized, but completely and passionately at odds with one another, and that produces a pressure-cooker situation. In the short term, regardless of who wins, a large chunk of the population will be unhappy about the results, some to a violent result.

As a once Rublican(ish) turned Democrat(ish) due to the actions of our president, I would like to point out that whether he meant to or not, George W. Bush engendered this environment of fervent polarity, and whatever post-election fallout occurs is due largely to his actions.

The American people have sacrificed our liberties, our economy, some jobs, and some lives, all at the behest of the president... and to what end? In what way has the life of the average American improved by the actions of this administration? What did we get in return? I can't think of anything.

Originally Posted by slang

The fact is though that there are so few Reps here because they are run out. They dont have days on end to prepare the replies to a continuous string of accusations, half truths and outright lies. They are gone. I think lookout does a good job at presenting our perspective in a friendly manner and have told him that. But we are outnumbered here. UT does a good job at being fair and has the capacity to make a case well too. Half the time I cant read his posts and the other half I cheer.

The fact is though, that the Cellar is not a cross section of America. Just as in other communities, feel good about the dominance of your philosophy, but realize this isnt reality. It's not balaned.

The people who replied to the poll asking what descripters mostly closely matched their political leanings have given us the following results so far (rounded off to the next largest number):

"Left" leaning 47%
"Right" leaning 19%
Libertarian 22%
Anarchist 12%

The board does have a preponderance of those favoring liberal adjectives, but if you add together "right" plus libertarian, it comes out to 41%. While Republicans and Libertarians may bristle at the thought, the Libertarian philosophy is far closer to the Republican one than it is the Democrat one, so you guys are not so wildly out-numbered as you seem to believe.

Frankly, I don't think that its because we "Liberals" have so much endless time to write posts (Lookout posted here more frequently than I do up until a few days ago); it's that Bush's actions have become increasingly difficult to defend. The people who post here are a pretty bright bunch for the most part, and I don't think anyone is so deluded as to think that the cellar is a representative cross section of American (or international) political thought. One need only look at the latest public opinion surveys to see that this is not so. IMO, the country has not been so deeply divided since the Vietnam era, and I lay the blame for this squarely upon George Bush's doorstep.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Cyber Wolf

Those folks can take to the streets and do their protest and all...as long as they don't get in my way. They won't make me sympathetic to any cause by making my day more difficult.

*still seething over recent IMF/World Bank street closings*

Did the protestors shut down the streets, or did the police? The IMF/World Bank meeting in D.C. a week and a half ago didn't have any protests that I am aware of. It did have street closures. They affected me too. I didn't see a single protestor, or see a single news story on any. Did you see any?

[Elspode]

The intensity of the Right and their convictions that they have all the answers, and that they tell us that those answers are firmly rooted in a Christian morality which is applicable for *all* scares the hell out of me.

Christianity would have been a great idea if they'd just left out the whole evangelistic imperative thing. A bunch of people running around being nice to everyone in the name of Christ would be an inspiration to all. A bunch of people running around, forcing everyone else to do what they believe Christ's dad wants everyone to do is an affront to humanity.

You have to admire our founders' decision to keep religion and government separate. When the Right bitches about liberal judges rewriting the Constitution, they need to keep in mind their own actions to put religion in every institution, organization and program.

[russotto]

Originally Posted by marichiko

The board does have a preponderance of those favoring liberal adjectives, but if you add together "right" plus libertarian, it comes out to 41%. While Republicans and Libertarians may bristle at the thought, the Libertarian philosophy is far closer to the Republican one than it is the Democrat one, so you guys are not so wildly out-numbered as you seem to believe.

It's convenient for you to say that, but it isn't true. It was closer to true during the Reagan years, but both parties have gotten further away since then, the Republicans faster than the Democrats. And 9/11 brought out all the Republicans traditional law-n-order opposition to liberty too.

Originally Posted by Elspode

The intensity of the Right and their convictions that they have all the answers, and that they tell us that those answers are firmly rooted in a Christian morality which is applicable for *all* scares the hell out of me.

Christianity would have been a great idea if they'd just left out the whole evangelistic imperative thing. A bunch of people running around being nice to everyone in the name of Christ would be an inspiration to all. A bunch of people running around, forcing everyone else to do what they believe Christ's dad wants everyone to do is an affront to humanity.

You have to admire our founders' decision to keep religion and government separate. When the Right bitches about liberal judges rewriting the Constitution, they need to keep in mind their own actions to put religion in every institution, organization and program.

From the "Your Worst Nightmares Come True" Department, I present you with the "Rapture Index." Yes, for reals, no kidding. Check it out:
http://www.raptureready.com/index.php

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by slang

AnThe fact is though that there are so few Reps here because they are run out. They dont have days on end to prepare the replies to a continuous string of accusations, half truths and outright lies. They are gone. I think lookout does a good job at presenting our perspective in a friendly manner and have told him that. But we are outnumbered here. UT does a good job at being fair and has the capacity to make a case well too. Half the time I cant read his posts and the other half I cheer.

I can't recall more than a handful of people that have actually called themselves Republicans on this board in the almost 4 years I've been here. The shift to a more liberal board has only really occurred in the past 6-9 months. For quite a while, there were only a few of us willing to call ourselves liberals.