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10-08-2008, 04:34 PM | #31 |
Are you knock-kneed?
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Middle Hoosierland
Posts: 3,549
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10-08-2008, 04:35 PM | #32 |
still says videotape
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 26,813
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I suspect its the last thing they want as well.
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If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis |
10-08-2008, 04:37 PM | #33 |
Are you knock-kneed?
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Middle Hoosierland
Posts: 3,549
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My husband was a marine and he seems to think that you couldnt get these guys to follow orders to shoot to kill.
I wonder. |
10-08-2008, 04:55 PM | #34 | ||
Goon Squad Leader
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 27,063
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Quote:
Hey joe: Thanks for you participation in this thread. I appreciate the input from someone that is knowledgeable and articulate—you’re both. I don’t have a problem with our military. I’m not afraid of them; I’m not ashamed of them. I have less confidence in the governmental leadership responsible for issuing orders to units deployed domestically. And I have practically no confidence in the general public’s ability to think and act rationally about any serious subject for a sustained period, never mind in a crisis. And it is these last two factors that make me very uneasy about a plan like this. I have little doubt the troops will do what they’re told. I fear that what they’ll be told, by the governmental leadership, will be suspect and that the general public’s behavior in a crisis will give them apt reason to yield to the panic. I think our military is a first class organization, built for fighting war. I think the further the mission strays from that core responsibility, the more trouble we’re asking for. And to compound that risk, we’re doing it here at home. I’m glad you’re wildfire certified. Honestly, thank you. I live in the Evergreen State, and up here fire==bad. But the portions of the article that talk about “helping with civil unrest and crowd control” chill me. If we’re talking about disaster relief, I’m all for it. But if we need the military to cope with these kinds of inevitabilities, it is a symptom of two larger more important problems. One, we’ve dangerously underfunded the civilian protective infrastructure and two, we’re changing what our military is. I won’t be ungrateful if y’all show up when we’re on fire or the earthquake flattens us. I’ll be extremely grateful for the help and for the fact that you’ve trained in order to deliver that help. But I need y’all to do other jobs I can’t do, jobs my local community can’t do. And that’s be soldiers and sailors and airmen and Marines. You know, “Over there!”, shooting stuff. I can’t do that part. I can make sure my first responder community is properly designed and funded and trained. I can make sure my community has the right resources to maintain law and order. Of course, that means an enormous political and governmental and community effort to “stand up” the appropriate civil units. But it can be done, and should be done. Because I don’t want your job. You’re awesome at it and I’m profoundly grateful. Please keep your eye on that ball. As for your last paragraph, we disagree. Quote:
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10-08-2008, 05:07 PM | #35 | |
Only looks like a disaster tourist
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: above 7,000 feet
Posts: 7,208
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Quote:
I got my gun at the ready, gonna fire at will Cause I shoot to thrill and I'm ready to kill I can't get enough, I can't get my fill I shoot to thrill, play to kill Yeah, pull the trigger Pull it, pull it, pull it, pull the trigger |
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10-08-2008, 06:30 PM | #36 | |
Read? I only know how to write.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
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Quote:
We're finally on our own. This summer I hear the drumming, Four dead in Ohio. Gotta get down to it Soldiers are gunning us down Should have been done long ago. What if you knew her And found her dead on the ground How can you run when you know? And with our new economy, the best thing we could have done is privatize Social Security. And the President can be trusted to go to war only when it is justified. And Americans don't kidnap and torture because we are the good guys. A President can be trusted to not corrupt the United States government such as unlimited wiretapping, breaking into Watergate, and attempting to subvert the elected government of Australia. Even John Lennon was declared an enemy of America because we can always trust the powers that be. How quickly people forget the lessons of history even 30 years later. Reasoning that soldiers can be trusted assumes corruption does not exist at the highest levels of government. At what point do we forget the lessons of Prof Zimbardo and those Stamford U psychology experiments? We can trust those in power to not abuse that power? Hardly. Guantanamo demonstrates that Americans must especially ration power selectively. Our society depends on it. Those who least can be trusted are those who only know what they are told - rarely ask those embarrassing questions. We are expected to learn from Hitler’s Mein Kampf. To subvert German society, he had to disparage the bourgeois and intelligencia. Then tell the 'brown shirts' how to think. That's all it took for Hitler to completely subvert the German government AND earn popular support for "Pearl Harboring" other nation. Lessons of history (and even psychology) are quite blunt about giving any government and military too much power. Never forget lessons from the song "Ohio". Americans - especially soldiers who never learn to ask why and doubt - are easy enticed by the Dark Side. |
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10-08-2008, 06:36 PM | #37 |
Only looks like a disaster tourist
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: above 7,000 feet
Posts: 7,208
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Good post, tw.
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10-08-2008, 08:20 PM | #38 |
Constitutional Scholar
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 4,006
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"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin |
10-08-2008, 09:14 PM | #39 |
Старый сержант
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women.
Posts: 1,464
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It must truly be a difficult task to plan for and execute the defense of the United States. BigV, TW....you bring up some very good, and valid points. What is the effect of the decisions, and actions of our highest levels of leadership on our own civil population. We must take into account history in our actions, also that we don't give up our great freedoms in search of our defense. I am glad that you are both here to remind us. Thank you.
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Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius. |
10-09-2008, 03:57 AM | #40 |
Guest
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Rest assured, the US Government has circumvented armed clashes between its military and civilian populations by outsourcing augmentation of civilian law enforcement for domestic crisis intervention. The Whitewater Corp. (there's irony for you), a subsidiary of Blackwater USA, is retained by contract to perform that function should the need arise. Contingency planning for simultaneous crises in multiple US locations charges France with deployment of the French Foreign Legion under UN command to such locations as approved by UN Security Counsel resolution (seems fitting, they owe us) and the US Government shall therefore be held harmless of infringing on the rights of its citizens in the eyes of the international community.
[Judy Tenuta] "It could happen!" [/Judy Tenuta] Last edited by NoBoxes; 10-09-2008 at 05:09 AM. Reason: Just checking for hidden messages. |
10-09-2008, 04:59 AM | #41 |
St Petersburg, Florida
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10-09-2008, 09:54 AM | #42 |
Looking forward to open mic night.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 5,148
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Heh. There's slang. Holy Heartbreak batman!!
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10-09-2008, 11:20 AM | #43 |
Goon Squad Leader
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 27,063
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AWKI? It's already happened. This new page looks just like the beginning of the old page, though. History repeats itself, remember? But I'm really focused on the economic facets of the current turning. The political and social aspects, while fully integrated with the others are less clear to me.
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Be Just and Fear Not. |
10-09-2008, 11:21 AM | #44 |
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,338
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To those who have not served.
The oath we took when we raised our right hand, states in part: "I will obey the lawfulorders of the officers and seniors appointed over me. It is not lawful to open fire on the citizenry. Or is it? Have you tried to hijack an airliner and crash it into the White House lately? Bet you don't make it. Even stray out of the flight corridors around DC and RR Int'l and you will have a close up view of our nation's finest pilots flying F-16s fully armed as they escort you to an airfield so that you can talk to the nice men in dark suits who will meet you there. I was once polled to see if I would be willing to fire on civilians in time of unrest and I said no. Nearly all of the crew did. The few who did not were found out (it was supposed to be secret) and shunned for a while. I think the US military is still of this mindset. It could be OUR loved ones on the other side of that barricade. Could YOU shoot your own brother or parents? I couldn't. Brian
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10-09-2008, 11:31 AM | #45 |
Not half the God I used to be
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: everywhere but enjoy the Vets club best
Posts: 120
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You are all very very fucked.
Have a nice day. |
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