College Search

[Griff]

We're in the middle of a college search here and are trying not to push our ideas about degrees vs employment. Lil Pete is excited about her last visit as she was about the last before that. Industrial design is her present target and it appears to be appropriate for her skill set. I'm watching another family close to us doing it without communication. They are making their daughter visit a school she doesn't like for the 4th time. They're pushing her towards programs she isn't suited for or interested in. They've made a fight out of what should be the most exciting important decision a kid gets to make. They've raised her to be wishy-washy so she has no idea how to tell them to f*cking stop!

Any thoughts on the process?

[footfootfoot]

might be cliche, but listening, mirroring, asking questions and listening some more can go a long way. Your kids are scary smart and won't be fooled by even the most subtle manipulation. You and Pete are great parents, as far as I can judge. You can also re-assure her at what is probably an exhilarating and scary time.

[monster]

They're doing it wrong.

[Clodfobble]

I have two opposing thoughts on this matter. 1.) Griff and Pete are doing it right, no question. 2.) These other parents maybe aren't doing it wrong, either. I think it's possible that they have a harder job to do, whether it happens to be a situation of their own making or not.

In my experience, the nature/nurture influence is a bell curve with nature mostly overtaking the whole middle portion of individuals. At one end you have the relatively small number of individuals who are neglected/abused, and no amount of innate "good" personality is going to overcome that kind of trauma. At the other end, you have the few kids with innate sociopathic tendencies, and no amount of good parenting is going to overcome that. But for the vast majority of everyone else... well, I've seen too many sibling sets turn out completely and totally different to believe that nurture has that much of a role to play. Maybe this other girl is wishy-washy because they raised her to be that way, or maybe they just stopped fighting her innate wishy-washy tendencies by about the age of 7 or 8, which is the time I see most parents give up trying to be the sole architect of their children's personalities. Which is not to say that they should give up trying to have any influence at all, though it seems a lot of them do.

Anyway, I don't know this kid, so maybe I'm totally wrong. I don't know if the programs they're pushing her towards are basically sensible, or rooted in some weird "follow in our footsteps" kind of mentality, or what. But I can at least envision the possibility that they do have her best interests in mind by steering her future so sternly.

A friend of mine's parents did something similar to her younger brother, and at the time I was horrified. They strictly informed the boy that he would not be allowed to major in English, regardless of what school he chose. They wanted him to major in business, but there were a few other options they would also consider acceptable. Now, this was not what you would call the typical MBA kind of kid, and they fought very bitterly over it, but ultimately the son majored in business at the most liberal college he could find. Turned out, the parents knew him better than we thought they did. They didn't want him to be a middle manager, they wanted him to learn entrepreneurial skills because they were already well aware that his personality was definitely not suited to working under others--and that included being able to work in a public school, or to navigate the academic politics necessary to get a PhD and use an English degree that way. This kid was truly inspired by literature, no doubt, and was well-suited to learning about it, but in the end he never would have been successful with it. By his junior year he had picked up enough basic business concepts that he was independently remodeling and flipping houses (and being quite successful at it even after the housing bubble burst.) He's happy, and has since told his parents he's glad they didn't let him major in his "passion." In the beginning he was also really ticked off that his parents hadn't exerted nearly as much control over his older sister's choices, but eventually he had to admit that she was more mature than he was at that age, and was already making choices that would allow her to be successful, so they didn't need to step in.

Anyway, just my two cents.

[monster]

Yebbut, you're looking at your friend's brother's experience from a kids POV, Griff is an adult with parent-side experience and he says she isn't suited for these courses. I see a difference. I don't doubt they have her best interests at heart. I do doubt they are taking the right approach to find out what really is in her best interest.

And I think that all parents have an idea of what's best for their child, and children do need guidance, but there are right ways and wrong ways of doing it. If you just tell them what they are going to do, will they go into it with the right mindset to give it their best shot? Probably not.

I think you need to be open with them, tell them why you think what you think, explain what difference your looking at it as an adult with experience makes and point to their personal evidence that such-and-such is a good decision for them. But then I'm a tree-hugging-hippy-liberal, what do I know?

[footfootfoot]

@CF, that was four cents

[monster]

charge her interest!

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by monster

I think you need to be open with them, tell them why you think what you think, explain what difference your looking at it as an adult with experience makes and point to their personal evidence that such-and-such is a good decision for them. But then I'm a tree-hugging-hippy-liberal, what do I know?

Oh absolutely. Communication is required no matter what. It turns out my friend's parents were making their points very thoroughly at the time, but the brother wasn't listening so we weren't getting accurate third-hand reports of what was being said. If Griff's actually seen these parents in action, then no doubt he's right they are doing a crappy job. I thought Griff was relying on his daughter's reports of what her friend thought about her parents' actions.

[gvidas]

I've been coming to realize, particularly in the past 4 months since I graduated college, that my generation is really strongly prepped to look for a system to follow. We apply for internships and residencies and shows, instead of going out and making the things we want to make. We look for jobs, instead of looking for someone who will pay us to do something interesting. It's not that we're not free, or capable, or surrounded with opportunities -- it's that we're set up to only go for opportunities when somebody "accepts" us to one.

Maybe your kids aren't of this mindset yet. It might be my peer group. But one of the most exhilarating thing about being out of college is the growing realization that I get to invite myself to whatever opportunity I want. It's generally terrifying. But I'd say kids should go somewhere that is open-ended, vague, full of exploration, and emphasizes them figuring out what it is they care about. At the very least, it shouldn't be about a career anymore.

[Griff]

Good points Clod, I'll accept the over-charge. They are trying to overcome deficits the girl has (nature v nurture aside). I've seen their work over time. The parents are opposite personalities and the daughter takes after Mom very submissive, avoiding conflict, but with a capacity for passive aggression, which I think we're watching right now from both sides. We've convinced ourselves of the folly of involvement even though my advice was asked for before I had a clear idea what was happening.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by gvidas

But I'd say kids should go somewhere that is open-ended, vague, full of exploration, and emphasizes them figuring out what it is they care about. At the very least, it shouldn't be about a career anymore.

This is a complex question. I'd say kids/ future earners need to be flexible and good problem solvers. They need to be better at seeing opportunities than I have been and more honest with themselves about their skills and needs.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Griff

We've convinced ourselves of the folly of involvement

Yeah, that's probably a safe call.

Nature or nurture aside, I guarantee you I'd rather spend an afternoon with Li'l Pete than this other girl. You'll get to rest on your laurels very soon...