Hezbollah night-vision gear manufactured in Britain

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

MaggieL; again, it all goes back to the 1967 borders. It has been stated by all parties concerned that these borders are acceptable to all.

And that would be the end of the salami game? It was reason enough for war in 1967, but now it's suddenly OK. You'll have pardon me if I'm skeptical.

I'm also envisioning a slot machine as designed by an anti-Israelite (there's too much shell game to use a more precise label than that).

You put a coin in and launch an attack...I mean...you pull the lever. If you win something, you get to keep it. If you don't, the UN imposes a cease-fire, you get your coin back and try again in five years.

[Undertoad]

You know what? I'm not really evading that question at all. To show you what I mean, I'll answer it.

WHAT WOULD I DO IF MY HOME WAS CONFISCATED.

If my home was confiscated, I'd be really, really steaming mad.

I'd start by bringing my grievances to the governments involved, the local government and the federal government. I'd both question the legitimacy of the UN and demand to speak to the UN to try to reverse the situation. I would use every bit of power I could find. Up to, and not including, taking up arms to kill people.

I'd ask Jacquelita if I could move in with her. If her house was confiscated, I'd suggest that we move to our mom's houses, if our moms were agreeable. If that didn't fly, I'd call my friends in California and ask if we could hang for a while until we got jobs.

After a while, the reality of moving on with my life would overwhelm the anger at being uprooted. I would get a job, get productive. I'd watch comedies. I would still work to affect the politics that led to the situation, which is to say I would try to end the UN, and ask for some level of reparations from the new owner. I would still try to use every bit of power I could find. Up to, and not including, taking up arms to kill people.

After a number of years, I would simply try to make the most of my life, because it makes no sense to harbor such anger. If I had children, I would tell them that those people took our house, which made life tough for a while; but I would also tell them that a lingering, resentful anger is unproductive. I'd tell them that it is far more important to bring about a culture of respect for property and people. And that to bring about such a culture is the ultimate revenge and the sensible response to what has happened.

In teaching my children, I would point to the highest moral examples, such as Gandhi, and if I were Christian I'd use the example of Jesus, to show how sometimes there is a greater value in turning the other cheek to our adversaries.

Now, the question right back at you. I've answered, so you please answer. What would YOU do if your home was confiscated?

Would you kill the confiscators?

Would you kill their grandchildren?

"...and that's why international terrorism is justified." Now you see how I came to that reply.

When they start putting my children in camps, keeping me from jobs to feed them, keeping us from having equal medical supplies for them, then killing them in retaliation for something someone else did... yup, after a while... I may want to kill em' all. I may want them to feel just like I do in hopes that they would stop. If they know what it feels like they may stop. It would be my only weapon.
I hope that it would not be my reaction, but if it was all I know... yes, it probably would be & a rational one.

[Hippikos]

If my home was confiscated, I'd be really, really steaming mad.

Well, there ya go UT, starting to feel what Palestines felt.

I'd start by bringing my grievances to the governments involved, the local government and the federal government. I'd both question the legitimacy of the UN and demand to speak to the UN to try to reverse the situation. I would use every bit of power I could find. Up to, and not including, taking up arms to kill people.

Well there ya go again UT. Numerous UN motions have been accepted on that issue which Israel has not implicated.

I'd ask Jacquelita if I could move in with her. If her house was confiscated, I'd suggest that we move to our mom's houses, if our moms were agreeable. If that didn't fly, I'd call my friends in California and ask if we could hang for a while until we got jobs.

After a while, the reality of moving on with my life would overwhelm the anger at being uprooted. I would get a job, get productive. I'd watch comedies. I would still work to affect the politics that led to the situation, which is to say I would try to end the UN, and ask for some level of reparations from the new owner. I would still try to use every bit of power I could find. Up to, and not including, taking up arms to kill people.

After a number of years, I would simply try to make the most of my life, because it makes no sense to harbor such anger. If I had children, I would tell them that those people took our house, which made life tough for a while; but I would also tell them that a lingering, resentful anger is unproductive. I'd tell them that it is far more important to bring about a culture of respect for property and people. And that to bring about such a culture is the ultimate revenge and the sensible response to what has happened.

In teaching my children, I would point to the highest moral examples, such as Gandhi, and if I were Christian I'd use the example of Jesus, to show how sometimes there is a greater value in turning the other cheek to our adversaries.

Thank you for an insight in your life philosophy. I believe your forgot to mention how you would react on the fact that the intruders, whilst robbing your place have murdered some of your relatives, respectively have separated you from them. I even accept that you would turn your other cheek in that case and move on with your life by watching comedies whilst living with your mother.

Now, the question right back at you. I've answered, so you please answer. What would YOU do if your home was confiscated?

Most likely I would do what certainly most Americans would do (helped by their right to bear arms) and would blast the hell outta them if they had the guts to steal my house and start killing my relatives. I’m pretty sure the majority of all people would react that way.

Would you kill their grandchildren?

Absolutely not. But I can’t say what my grandchildren would do if they were in the same situation as I was, probably the same.

"...and that's why international terrorism is justified." Now you see how I came to that reply.

This was my answer in post #86, probably you overlooked it. “NO terrorism is justified, from nobody, inc Israel. Some say one's freedom fighter ist the other's terrorist. Most of Israel's PM's started their carreer as terrorist.”

[Hippikos]

A must read website from within the Jewish community is The Forward with a very interesting editorial with a 1973 analogy. Like I've always said, Israel needs to make peace with its neighbours to survive. But where is the new Kissinger?

"As it happens, every one of the target nations has sent urgent signals to Israel in recent weeks, making it clear that they want to do business. Israelis must now ask themselves what price they would have to pay to join the game, and what role they need their American ally to play to make it work."

"That is the challenge for Israel’s friends right now. Bush has been convinced by self-appointed spokesmen for Israel and the Jewish community that endless war is in Israel’s interest. He needs to hear in no uncertain terms that Israel is ready for dialogue, that the alternative — endless jihad — is unthinkable. Now is time to change the tune."

[Undertoad]

But I can’t say what my grandchildren would do if they were in the same situation as I was, probably the same.

Really? Would they kill Gal?



Gal Aizenman, 5 years old. Killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber at a bus station.

Would you kill her yourself? Would you look in her eyes and push the button, knowing that hundreds of pieces of red-hot shrapnel coated in rat poison would enter her body?

Your grandchildren would kill her. Your grandchildren are a bunch of losers. Mine would be in California working as developers. They'd be working to build a bigger and better world, for themselves and for everyone else.

Israel has developers... lots of 'em. Palestine doesn't have any. They have an entire university there, An-Najah; and instead of studying something useful, millions in international funds have gone into figuring out how to make bigger and better bombs.

After a rather successful suicide bombing, at a Jerusalem Sbarro restaurant in 2001, the students of An-Najah University created a room-sized reenactment display.



There go your theoretical grandchildren. So beautiful as they go around celebrating a culture of death. If you really get your wish, one of them will blow themselves up. That's your glorious vision for them. The blood on the walls, they love it. They eat that shit up.

Did I mention mine are developers?

Our entire argument boils down to progress and civilization versus stupid blood-cult racist/religious claptrap hatred. Do you think these people are the only ones who have had a greivance in the world? The rest of them got on with their lives; these people have developed a stupid death cult because people like you have encouraged it. Well fucking done.

Ghandi would smile at you, no?

And that's how international terrorism is justified.

[Trilby]

UT, everyone here knows Hippikos is an anti-Semite. Maybe if we ignore him he'll go away.

[Undertoad]

Anti-Semite, I wish. Hip is a standard-issue European citizen.

[Hippikos]

Would you kill her yourself? Would you look in her eyes and push the button, knowing that hundreds of pieces of red-hot shrapnel coated in rat poison would enter her body?

My response was already given in the above message (Absolutely not) which you conveniently prefer to ignore.

For each pic you post I can post the same from the other side:

Here's the grim reality you wish to ignore:

Since September 28, 2000:

* 383 Palestinian children (under the age of 18) have been killed by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers, i.e. almost 19% of the total Palestinians killed (figure at 21 November 2002);
* Approximately 36% of total Palestinians injured (estimated at more than 41,000) are children;
* 86 of these children were under the age of ten;
* 21 infants under the age of 12 months have been killed;
* 500 Palestinian children have been permanently disabled due to Israeli attacks.

Of course Brianna would call these statistics antisemitic, wouldn't she?

If my grandchildren were ethnic cleansed, deprived from basic daily needs, education, relatives killed, houses destroyed, without any hope of a better future I cannot stand what they do. Because unlike you thy wouldn't live in a developed 1st world country with relatives in a comfortable house with aircon where you can watch sitcoms whilst zipping a coke with ice.

All I want is peace for all parties. You, Brianna and Maggie insist on seeing the world in blacks and whites and are willing to keep fighting to the last Israeli or Palestinian. Now why don't you go and read the above editorial from Jewish people who think about a future peace and try to solve the situation instead of inflaming it. You're just the same as the Islam fanatics preaching the endless jihad.

UT, everyone here knows Hippikos is an anti-Semite. Maybe if we ignore him he'll go away.

Yep, that's the usual response to people who show the other side of the moon...

TW is a communist and I'm an antisemitic, how convenient

[Undertoad]

The pic you can't post is the one where the Israeli soldier saw the child's eyes.

The pic you can't post is the one at the Israeli University celebrating the massacre.

The pic you can't post is the one Photoshopped or brazenly set up.

The pic you can't post is of the Israeli gloriously showing his blood-soaked hands to the cheering crowd after lynching a Palestinian. Your grandchild:



The pic you can't post is people in Berlin celebrating that event in the name of "peace". Your child:



The pic you can't post is the one of the IDF hanging "conspirators" from a crane.

Our entire argument boils down to progress and civilization versus stupid blood-cult racist/religious claptrap hatred.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Brianna

UT, everyone here knows Hippikos is an anti-Semite. Maybe if we ignore him he'll go away.

Hippikos has simply posted facts too often lost when one only understands sound bytes and the Daily News (assuming she even reads a newspaper). Reading so selectively as directed by your emotions is a prerequisite for promoting hate, Brianna. No wonder you also post hate against Hippikos - who only posts facts that are not just soundbytes.

Gal is a perfect example of who must die when politicians do not do their job. Her head belongs in Likud's trophy room. Ironic that people such as Gal were assured of life when Israel was negotiating. And then Likud extremists did everything necessary to destroy that peace - to intentionally restart the intafada. Quite intentional for Likud to destroy the Oslo Accords so that West Bank lands could be confiscated - this time with a new trick - the wall.

And so Gal must die to the greater glory of Zionism and Likud. Likud whose objective is extremist Zionism: annexation even of the West Bank and Gaza.

UT forgot to include that reality in his spin. UT posted Gal not for logical thought. He posted Gal for emotional - classic Rush Limbaugh - propaganda value. He does this with more frequency. UT forgets why violence restarted and why negotiations failed - when Likud extremists intentionally did everything necessary to restart the intafada.

The Economist also writes more of what UT ignores:

Since the 1980s at least two prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin and Ehud Barak, gave their all in the search for peace. The first paid with his life and the second with his job. ...

This is not to say that Israel is blameless. ... This war was probably just that: a mistake after a provocation and not a plot cooked up either by Israel and America against Iran, or by Iran against Israel and America, as the rival conspiracy theories go. It followed a bigger blunder: Israel's failure after Yasser Arafat's death to work seriously with his moderate successor, Mahmoud Abbas.

The Economist does not post irrelevant pictures of Gal for propaganda value. Nor does it somehow know reality by selective reading based upon personal biases. Such biases that eventually lead to hate (a warning to Brianna who already automatically knows what is right and wrong - who need not confuse issues by learning of other perspectives). Ignorance and resulting bias makes her a perfect recruit for the 'army of hate'. Sound byte intelligence is alive and well - including that picture of Gal only for emotional bias.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The pic you can't post is the one where the Israeli soldier saw the child's eyes.

The pic you can't post is the one at the Israeli University celebrating the massacre.

The pic you can't post is the one Photoshopped or brazenly set up.

All has no relevance because it is only for emotion. Emotion - the reason for all these deaths. Emotion - the reason why those such as Brianna cannot first learn facts - cannot read Hippikos posts nor mine. Emotion - the only reason UT is posting these pictures.

Even the Iwo Jima picture was staged. Does it matter? UT will take the tiniest and most irrelevant detail to hype it as if the big picture. It is called propaganda. It works on those who cannot see his pictures for what they are. He is promoting hate by posting for emotion response.

Photoshopped pictures are only curious details. Dead Gal whose head hangs in Likud's trophy room is only a curious detail. And yet hyping those details is how emotional radical extremists get more trophy heads. They even have UT and Brianna doing their job.

[Hippikos]

UT dude, with your last message you show you really lost the plot, sharing your website co-owner Bruce's emotional reasoning.

Some more facts you wish to ignore:

The Israeli army’s widespread destruction of schools, the forced closure of educational institutes, the ever- present danger to school children and staff attempting to continue normal education, together demonstrate the Israeli government’s complete violation of the right of Palestinian children to an education. For example:

* Since September 2000:
→ 2,610 pupils have been wounded on their way to or from school;
→ 245 Palestinian students and school children have been killed and 166 students and 75 teachers have been arrested
* Between January and July 2002, Israeli military forces occupied 18 schools in the West Bank, converting them to military bases or prisons;
* In Hebron alone, four schools have been converted to military bases, with three still under Israeli control (as of December 2002), denying 1,920 students access to their schools;
* Between January and June 2002, 24 schools were heavily shelled by the Israeli military;
* Since 29 March 2002, the education process has been completely paralyzed in 850 schools;
* Since September 2000, 197 schools have been damaged, 11 schools completely destroyed and 9 vandalized;
* From 29 March to 1 May 2002: 1,289 schools were closed, 45,000 tawjihi students supposed to take the general exam in June were prevented from accessing their schools, and 54,730 teaching sessions per day were lost due to complete cessation of classes in major West Bank towns during Israeli military operations.

I have dozens of equally grim statistics about health situation, prisons etc. But I hope you get the message.

Ghandi would smile at you, no?

Read this from the Israelian Haaretz: Ghandi Ridux by Meron Rapaport

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

UT dude, with your last message you show you really lost the plot, sharing your website co-owner Bruce's emotional reasoning.

Obviously yet another Zionist Conspiracy to Suppress the Truth.

[Undertoad]

All we need, really, is one picture celebrating those events.

Certainly you can find one image of insanely happy Israelis celebrating the destruction of their enemies' school.

It's emotional, yes, but it demonstrates the mind-set and shows who wanted that kind of thing to happen.

By the way, the idea of a school being destroyed is an emotional one. Because you think of a school as being kinda like the place where you went to school, right?

The international community has given billions for those schools. But by 2001, it was tired of them teaching nothing but hate. Canada:

"According to 58 new textbooks and two teachers' guides for grades 1, 2, 6, 7 and 11 published in the past two years by the Palestinian Authority," Mr. Kalman reports, "Israel does not exist -- nor does the concept of peace… Children are encouraged from the earliest school age to hate Israelis, glorify 'martyrs' and seek the 'liberation' of all of Palestine, including Israel.

"The analysis of the textbooks… reveals the Palestinian Authority… curriculum does not teach the acceptance of Israel's existence, and instead of working to erase hateful stereotypes, it is instilling them into the next generation's consciousness…"

Since 1993, Canada has contributed $165-million in direct aid to Palestinian development programs, including education, plus a further $10-million annually to United Nations Relief & Works Agency (UNRWA).

An additional grant of $5-million, announced by you in May, is about to be distributed through the World Bank to a series of projects, including new schools and libraries, the report states.

The offensive textbook material has been included despite commitments made by the Palestinian Authority in the 1994 Cairo Agreement, where both parties undertook to "ensure that their educational systems contribute to the peace between Israel and the Palestinian people."
...
A similar report a year ago on 360 textbooks used in Israeli schools found dozens of examples where Israeli children are taught to recognize Palestinian claims and problems, and where an effort is made "to prepare the younger generation for openness and peace.

"No (Israeli text-)book calls for violence or war. Many books express the yearning for peace between Israel and the Arab countries," said that report.

So, at the demand of the international community, did they change?

The new Palestinian School Books teach that the 1st Zionist Congress at Basel fostered the Zionist State based on a secret decision of what came came to be known as the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". (p. 13) (Tarikh al-'Alam al-Hadith wal Mu-'asir (History of the News Modern World), 10th grade textbook, pp. 60-64).

The new Palestinian School books teach that the only ancient inhabitants of Israel were Arabs, ignoring any ancient Jewish presence. "Concentrated...in the land of Al-Sham {Greater Syria}...was the culture of the Canaanite and Aramaic peoples who migrated there from the Arab peninsula" (p.14-15) (Tarikh al-Hadarat al-Qadima (History of Ancient Civilizations), 5th grade textbook, Foreward).

The new Palestinian school books teach that Palestinians must use war and violence to accomplish their goals, especially martyrdom. (p.18) The heroic mother, "who incessantly presents one sacrifice [fida'] after another" (Lughatuna al-Jamila (Our Beautiful Language), Vol 2, 5th grade textbook, p. 31). The warrior goes to war faced with one of the good options: victory or martyrdom in battle for the sake of Allah. (Ibid. Vol. 1, 5th grade textbook, p. 70). (p.19) "Allah designated the people of this land (Al-Sham and Palestine) to an important task: they must stand on the forefront of the Muslim campaign against their enemies, and only if they fulfill their duy to their religion, nation, and land will they be rewarded as stated in the scriptures." (Al-Tarbiya al-Islamiyyah (Islamic Education), Vol 2, 10th grade textbook, p. 50).

The new Palestinian school books feature children with names such as Jihad (holy war) and Nidal (struggle). (p.22) (Tarikh al-Hadarat al-Qadima (History of Ancient Civilizations), 5th grade textbook, p.6).

Oh dear, the poor Palestinian children can't get to school. I'm all like emotional about it.

Your grandchildren are being educated to hate. Mine are developers.