11/4/2002: Gay Games open

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by richlevy
And where would that put Tonya Harding? On one hand she's got that biker chick toughness, on the other hand she appears to be enthusiastically hetero...

Hmmm. Gotta say if you're hospitalizing your bedmates, you're doing something wrong; repeat business is vital. I do know a dyke couple where Tab A got her wrist broken while fisting Slot B, though. Just a little too effective.

There's certainly no contradiction between toughness and being hetero in a woman, though. I know plenty of people of all genders representing all combinations of "toughness" and sexual preference.

[Cam]

Free and Clear

Here is an article out of ESPN the magazine about the gay NFL football player. Very interesting, it is actually written by him with the help of another editor. Very worthwhile reading.

[philgump]

Okay when I first saw this all I saw was a silly fag on ice. Then I went on to read it was the 6th Annual Gay Games. What a bunch of hooey. I see that someone posted that there shouldn't be a gay games due to the fact that they could participate in the normal olympics. I have to say "RIGHTO"

Now before you start the moaning and complaining (and flaming) let me add that I am a gay man. I still think the whole thing is a bunch of crap and I really don't want to hear that "Yes but they have been opressed for years." GET OVER IT. Besides the fact I really don't see how a 60 year-old drag queen on ice skates is going to further the cause of gays and lesbians everywhere.

To me it sets us back. Why? Here is why. The olympics are a set of games that are created for the elite, many gays have been in the oylmics and been quite good at it. Now along comes a group of wimpy pansies and says "Thats too hard" , "This doesn't celebrate the beauty inside me", whatever. You created a set of games becasue you are not good enough to be in the regular olympics.

DO YOU REALLY THINK IS THE WAY TO GET RESPECT? Why don't you be the best that you can be and be come the best Swimmer, Skater, Gymnist, or Weightlifter possible, and leave the GAY out of it. Why is is that gays feel like they have to annouce they are gay. Do you see other groups doing this. To me is is just a big joke, you want respect from the rest of the community there is ONE way to gt it. Act like a normal human being, stopping forcing "GAY" down everyones throats. Hell for the most part gays piss me off worse than anything else on earth and I know that if I am this annoyed then the rest of the world must be feed up with you.

As it has already been said. . . . Let the Flames begin!

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by philgump
Now along comes a group of wimpy pansies and says "Thats too hard" , "This doesn't celebrate the beauty inside me", whatever. You created a set of games becasue you are not good enough to be in the regular olympics.

The point isn't that the folks participating in (competing *and* attending) in the Gay Games aren't good enough for the "normal" Olympics. The point is that "normal" athletic events --those of lesser fame as well as the Olympic Games themselves--aren't good enough for queer folks to participate in without constatly worrying about if they're "looking normal" or being abused by the others attending.

You say you're a gay man: are you out or closeted?

[philgump]

Maggie and everyone else that would like to know:

I have no idea what the hell that means I never have. I mean are you asking if I go up to everyone an say 'Hi, I am Phil and I am a homosexual' well then the answer would be NO. Why would you do that. I mean you can be who you are without announcing it with flags waving.

Now, if you are asking if people know that I am gay. Well that would depend on how much intelligence they have. I always announce my partner as my partner and I make no bones about having a one bedroom house and have two grown men living there. If someone asks me if I am gay of course my answer would be yes, as I do not make it a regular habit to be a liar.

There are a lot of things about me people don't know. Do some people at work know, yes? Do they all know? Hell no, do you go to work and announce the sexual positions you use. You may to some to others it is of no consequence. Why do some people feel that they have to announce being gay. To be quite frank, most people do not deserve to know that much about me. Do you feel you have to tell everyone your sexual preference? I mean are you OUT as a heterosexual and if you say yes how do you know? I mean do you make it a point to say hey I am MaggieL and like to blow guys or girls. Why does ones life have to be based on the sex they have? Really people say, be colorblind and racism will fade, don’t mind what sexual preference people are and hatred will go away. If we are all supposed to be so integrated why is everyone trying to divide everything? I mean if you are truly color blind why say I am white, or I am black? If you have no problem with sexual preference then why do you have to say I am gay or straight?

I guess it is just my philosophy on life you see when I see people I tend to think more than what color, what sex, what sexual preference, or what nationality they are . I tend to not care.

So am I out? Well MaggieL I guess I just don’t thing you earned the right to know.

BTW what the HELL? Why do they have to worry about looking 'normal' are they abnormal in some way? I guess they think they are or else why invent a seperated set of games, and if you are going to ask if a man dressing in women's clothing is normal well let me take the bigoted approach and say "NO" is is not normal and Yes, there are are a set of stanards we live by.

[Nic Name]

"I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is."

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by philgump
So am I out? Well MaggieL I guess I just don’t thing you earned the right to know.

Wow...hit quite a nerve with that one.

By "out" I simply meant is your queerness a big secret that you are at pains to conceal (which is absolutely your right) or not. In a discussion of how queer folks relate to society I think it's an important thing to know; because it definately changes your point of view.

If you truly don't know what "out" means, let's try some examples: Ellen de Generis is definately out. J. Edgar Hoover was not. Now, there's a fairly broad spectrum in between, of course. I think how cranked up you are about answering that question says a lot...even though what you say suggests to me that you are not totally "closeted", which would mean that to my way of thinking you're out.

Interesting that you introduce your lifepartner as "your partner"; my lifepartner and I used to use that phrase until we discovered that many people thought we meant "business partner". "Roommate" doesn't always convey the idea of a comitted intimate relationship either.

Again, you've got a right to be as open about your own relationships as you like. As do other people. Perhaps in a perfect world, no one would care what your sexual orientation was, but the woreld is far from perfect, and being queer isn't purely a personal issue, it's political too.

That "are you out or not" is an issue is another indication of why "it's not the same thing to be queer"; in general, straight people don't conceal their relationships unless they're cheating on someone or otherwise banging someone they shouldn't--like the boss, ferinstance. Of course, queer folks keep that kind of thing on the QT too.

[juju]

You say that people don't need to know whether or not you're gay, but isn't that just a rationalization for your shame at them knowing?

These other gays aren't trying to "shove it in people's faces". They're expressing who they are, because they love themselves and have a high self-confidence.

No. I think what he's saying is "it's really none of your fucking business". He obviously isn't ashamed of it or he wouldn't have admitted it here. He just doesn't feel the need to flaunt it.

[juju]

Originally posted by dave
No. I think what he's saying is "it's really none of your fucking business". He obviously isn't ashamed of it or he wouldn't have admitted it here. He just doesn't feel the need to flaunt it.

Well, admitting something online is no big deal. You're basically anonymous (unless that's his real name, of course).

He's said that he tells some people he's gay, but it's clear that he only tells people if he has to. That's the clue to the motivation, I think. He doesn't lie about it, but he doesn't freely offer the information, either. He makes a point of not telling people unless they absolutely need to know.

You say he doesn't like to "flaunt it", but noone actually does this. To say that some gays are flaunting their sexuality is to mischaracterize their motivations. It's my opinion that they just want to be themselves openly. For them, it's not about showing off to other people for their own ego's sake. To do so would be counterproductive to the ego.

I don't really like to tell people i'm from Arkansas. It's really none of their business. If they're intelligent, they'll figure it out.

[perth]

Originally posted by juju

Well, admitting something online is no big deal. You're basically anonymous (unless that's his real name, of course).

He's said that he tells some people he's gay, but it's clear that he only tells people if he has to. That's the clue to the motivation, I think. He doesn't lie about it, but he doesn't freely offer the information, either. He makes a point of not telling people unless they absolutely need to know.

You say he doesn't like to "flaunt it", but noone actually does this. To say that some gays are flaunting their sexuality is to mischaracterize their motivations. It's my opinion that they just want to be themselves openly. For them, it's not about showing off to other people for their own ego's sake. To do so would be counterproductive to the ego.

I don't really like to tell people i'm from Arkansas. It's really none of their business. If they're intelligent, they'll figure it out.

i guess i really dont understand what youre suggesting. are you saying he should actively try to work it into conversation? as in "this dinner is great! im gay. could you pass the potatoes?".

i dont go around telling people im straight. it really is nobodys business but my own. so i dont see why gay people should have to tell people theyre gay. it comes off like theyre warning you about it or something. its okay to be proud of what you are, and if you want to tell people thats fine. but just because a person places different values on privacy does not imply that theyre ashamed of what they are.

~james

[juju]

No, i'm not saying work it into irrelevant conversation. That'd just be silly.

[perth]

Originally posted by juju
No, i'm not saying work it into irrelevant conversation. That'd just be silly.

the only reason i ask is because philgump did say that he will not lie if asked. he felt it was personal, but i did not get the impression that he was in any way ashamed of his lifestyle.

~james

I pretty much agree with philgump on this one. I don't just go around saying "I got laid last night." It's no one's business but mine (and my partner's, if I did indeed) - but I won't lie about it either. I just don't offer it up.

It's fine to be gay and proud if that's what floats your boat. But as for being yourself openly, I don't think it needs to include your sexuality. Whether or not someone is gay is not immediately physically obvious, like color of skin. So "being yourself" shouldn't mean that they have to fit into the stereotypical gay male mold - "I'm sthooper!" I know exactly one gay male where you could just <b>tell</b> - and a number of others where you couldn't.

So basically, the point is, you don't need to announce it to be yourself. Just like straight people don't introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Donald and I'm straight", gay persons don't need to introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Phil and I'm gay."

[perth]

"I'm sthooper!"

i almost fell out of my chair laughing at that. i think it was how you spelled it.

~james